Joe Rogan Experience #1283 - Russell Brand

boom and we're live russell why is it that when people start getting like super spiritual they start dressing like you you dress like a guru we circulate a memo so it's now time to stop wearing socks stop shaving and make eye contact for a bit too long oh it's uncomfortable i can't do that give my [ __ ] staring how long you gonna go with the beard i mean that's that's like you're you're full-on like you're a yogi now i mean it's gone beyond jesus and into moses and lesser prophets or navy seal you're in that range too like

you could be some wild man that's that's a mistake that wouldn't like if there was an assault course in front of us that the potential for moving a navy seal would start to break down i once went on a an assault course with some u.s marines in that place near san diego i can't remember the name of that base and climbing up that rope using your leg muscles it was not good value didn't enjoy it i like the camaraderie and i really love like i as i've written about and talk about quite a lot when i'm around very in very male environments i kind of really like it i really get off in it but i have to watch myself not getting

too excitable it's even in this environment as a matter of fact i have to keep myself a little bit chilled out what do you mean what does it do to you well i guess what it is is in my early life i grew up mostly around my mum and i don't have brothers and sisters and stuff like that so my male role modeling occurred later in life and i think it probably relates to this spiritual thing i think it meant that i was i'm very open to sort of spiritual experience meditative experience i didn't have a lot of grounding physical experiences or bodily experiences really till adolescence until sex and sexuality that's the first

time i really sort of got into the body didn't do sport as a kid didn't have like men going right this is what we do this is how we shave this is how you treat people this is you know i didn't really get that kind of education so now still if i'm around like soldiers ufc fighters i go you know you know i do bjj primarily as a result of these conference that's not called confrontations conversations that's a much nicer term so like there's a bit of me that's the guy get excited about the analysis of it it's not homoerotic because that doesn't happen to be the way that i roll out you just enjoy a little too much there's something about

it yeah you get fired up and maybe what's bad about it what's what's bad about getting fired up nothing for me except like you know look my as you know my model for life is a sort of a 12-step model about watching my impulses my impulses have got me in a lot of trouble my impulse is to take drugs my impulses to sleep around my like my impulses to even eat food i've got a sort of a tendency to get obsessive but you know you would probably argue that if you direct that energy correctly it can be kind of positive i think it can but i agree with you that it can get out of control and i

have similar impulses i have similar problems and i've just used discipline and hard work especially working out to try to mitigate it well that's what i pick up from you is that your early encounters with martial arts have meant that you've understood from a young age it seems to me physical discipline and i think that's a very important thing and i'm only learning that like now because i've had like you know drugs then fame then and chaos and i've only just emerged from like the sort of the fog of that madness i love how you've emerged though because it's very unique you've you you've uniquely

emerged authentically like you this is who you really are like you're not putting on an act you found yourself which is like what everybody wants to do they want to find themselves i mean it never feels like a completed task right it never everyone's a work in progress forever right but you are you like you are very comfortably you and you found what makes you you that's a lovely compliment to get from you joe i appreciate that because what i think about is like you're a very different type of person to me there's things that in this world in these political times you and i would be supposed to i would say

take adversarial stances on i'm vegan now you love hunting but my personal philosophy is my morality and my spirituality is for me it's not something i go around inflicting on other people and telling them how they should behave i know enough now to know people are different people have different experiences and i don't let those things get in the way of how i evaluate other people we should all be more like that i really i really believe that i mean there's so many people that i disagree with that i have fine conversations with i don't think there's anything wrong with that and i don't think that impulse

to to have antagonistic engagements with people that you disagree with is correct how else are we going to consolidate if like it's just like i'm only going to deal with people that see the world roughly how i do how are we going to form new tribes new alliances new relationships new systems at a time when evidently it feels to me at least joe like things are breaking down yeah there's a lot of bitterness absurdity and confrontation and people don't want to talk to each other i mean i don't know how real that is of actual people i'm talking i suppose about how the media landscape

seems to present information i don't know if that's true when you're you know when i'm around people i don't sense oh wow these guys are really tied up in brexit or trump or whatever it doesn't seem that relevant to ordinary people it seems to me that people are still operating on a in a personal how are you today you know people are willing to get on like that i mean how are we supposed to take these ideas on board they're sort of almost too vast for us these geopolitical ideas that we're asked to identify with right and then your everyday life it hardly ever affects you or affects you very little in comparison

to things that you ignore because you're concentrating on brexit or you're concentrating on trump or you're concentrating on whatever it is yeah build that wall whatever it is yeah i start to wonder you know who is it that's involved in this stuff i start to what it's where i'm at now is are we even capable of belonging to groups units tribes of 300 million people or 60 million people with so many diverse ideas is this a time to look at federalism differently to start breaking down well you know the i exist within this tribe of people but i collaborate with all these other people i don't know how municipal action gets done i don't

know how you run an army and build roads if people are starting to operate in smaller units but i am thinking that we need to have a real sense of community and connection and we've got to let go of looking for ways to object to and judge other people as some sort of primary for way of forming our own identity no i completely agree and i think we're probably moving towards some sort of understanding that a lot of these boundaries and these clans of you know states and countries they were all established without our consent before we were born and we're we're just we're a part of a system that

we just were we didn't agree to it we just all of a sudden found ourselves in it and we're trying to make it fit us yeah that's right and there's aspects of it that are appealing you know like sort of during a world cup i really feel english and foreign like i feel a genuine sense of connection and investment but if i'm being asked to live according to rules that don't affect me that except for you know that perfect me financially and don't speak to who i am as an individual then i'm like well what is this this this isn't for my benefit yeah yeah when the the inclination to form teams

and to root for your team and a root against other teams it's uh it's so deep seated in us it's so and it can cause so many unnecessary conflicts for no reason it's just it's it's so it's so escapable too it's it's some so if you can objectively analyze the way human beings behave and interact with each other and go well why do we do this let's just stop doing that let's just if we disagree on things how much are these disagreements actually affecting me on a daily basis not that much can we just communicate can someone say what they think and i say what i think and we just decide like what makes sense and what doesn't

make sense based on our own interpretations isn't that possible it seems like it's that's the direction we've got ahead in i i did as i know you have done a podcast with candice owens who like on the subject of you know individuals like when she says stuff like uh people should get over slavery or it says if it didn't happen i don't agree with that i feel like that has a massive social impact that is that those statistics are not a coincidence the number of people are certain ethnicities in prisons and in poverty or whatever for me that's not just a coincidence but right so i couldn't agree with her more profoundly on according to social

criteria some very very important issues but in a personal level i thought she was absolutely delightful and like so funny and sweet and she's very young if you really start the thing she's only 28 which is amazing right is that correct she's so much smarter than i was when i was 28. she's certainly a lot more confident she's prettier too 28 or 29 same thing so when i was 29 i was a [ __ ] [ __ ] okay and no one would ever listen to my opinions on anything in on the world stage yeah people are listening to her i mean she's she's testifying in front of

congress i mean she's very so i cut her a lot of slack with some of the things that she's made like missteps on and i think sometimes when people say those things like people should get over slavery it's like it's almost like you're saying things that you think other people want to hear more than you're saying things that are really rational so whether or not we should get over slavery sure slavery was over more than 100 years ago but the repercussions of slavery the echoes of slavery still exist and they exist in all these different southern states and cities and all these different neighborhoods that had been a part of

systemic racism where they had literally forced black people to live in certain areas and didn't even allow them to buy homes outside of those areas they made laws and those laws were in place in places like baltimore and you know i had this guy michael wood on who was a police officer in the city of baltimore and one of the more profound things that he said was that they found papers that were documenting crimes from the 1970s in baltimore and they were in this same area the same crimes that he was facing in the 2000s when he was a police officer so he was looking at this going what in the [ __ ]

like this is am i just a part of something that's never going to be fixed and never going to be changed and you know as he learned more about the city and the city's laws and how these these systems were set up to keep people in certain places and how the crime and the violence and the drugs is all just in this one concentrated area and it's always been there and no one does anything to change it yeah you realize like wow this is a this is a crazy echo of a horrible past and that's what it is i had a couple of conversations that made me recognize how powerful systems and institutions are and their ability

to maintain themselves regardless of any individual because it seems like what happened there with the man you were chatting to is that he's an individual woke up oh my god hold on a second i'm in some sort of weird grid and like i spoke to this fella called ken ross who worked for the british diplomatic service at the time of 9 11 and was privy to confidential information about how that was handled on a military and geopolitical level and he said like he's come away from that thinking well these institutions function and in a totally corrupt way to pursue their own objectives disingenuity and dishonesty is just part of the system and it was

him that made me think about anarchism in a different way saying that people the assumption that people if they were not tightly governed with big government and huge control would go around murdering each other and raping each other simply not true that's one of the means by which the state continues to justify its existence people will behave better the closer they are to self-governing community self-governing community and this and i was interested in that because he's talking from this is what i saw on the inside this is how i saw it was running like your cop friend there and like uh another person i spoke to that had been

inside a system and then woken up uh within it who was that oh yeah janice varafakis he was when greece had that mad revolution he was like one of the leaders of a party syriza and for a minute it was like syriza said we ain't paying back all those debts you screwed us financially you screwed greece so he was there at the eu meetings telling like the german chancellery we're not greece ain't going to repay those debts and he just said that the way that the system reasserted itself was magnificent to watch in a way and he said none of those individuals have any power except the power that that role gives them if you are the german finance minister

you've got the power that a german finance minister has you can't step outside it and start going right listen why don't we do this and why don't we do that the system itself resp is beyond individual decisions you know it's a self-sustaining system it won't come up with ideas or support ideas that threaten it and that's why i continually keep hearing and i'm sure you're having similar conversations that if you are really interested in changing the world you have to participate in systems that are outside of it set up new ideas don't worry about trying to smash this one down with a hammer it will atrophy on its own as it becomes less and less

relevant i think also change yourself and when you change yourself becomes evident to the people around you and if your change is beneficial and attractive people they gravitate towards that idea that you can improve yourself and you can you change your perspective on things well that is the one area of your life where you've got some authority in control and that's yeah that is what i'm about it's like well i can stop myself being like a watching pornography i can stop myself using drugs if i want to like you know with some support and that's what that this book here mentors which i talk

about you in only for a paragraph you know i mean it's not too it's not like uh like literary fellatio it's just a small nod of your uh like of your influence and impact i talk about how we have late and latent qualities within us that are sometimes hard to realize on on without support but if you find a mentor in an area where you're looking to improve they can kind of energize awaken energies within you that on your own you wouldn't be able to use i had a really recent experience of it where i was sort of like freaking out about something i spoke to like a mentor of mine and like

the way that he sort of spoke to me was like sort of aggressive like a sort of an aggressive that's not going to happen you are not afraid and like it sort of it woke up the part of me that feels that way that has that kind of i would say sort of uh male certainty a kind of grounded energy he was able to sort of like direct it at me and like in that moment in myself all bewildered i wasn't able to do it you know i needed to resource it externally in a moment so this is how i sort of feel like your individual journey i'm interested in how because i'm guessing with your background in martial arts and stuff

mentorship seems pretty much stitched into that you must continually be looking at someone learning from someone yeah trying to equal them or whatever it is yeah the good part about that is you get good at learning things you get good at listening you know uh as a martial arts student you you don't just listen you listen very intently you bow you say sir you know i mean there's there's so much discipline involved in the the the act of learning yeah and so much reverence and respect for people who know more than you and appreciation so uh that that helped me with pretty much everything i ever wanted to learn i just

would listen very intently i don't think maybe i could figure it out better i will i'm very good at listening to people that are good at things that's interesting did you first get into uh like you know i've picked up stuff over the various shows of yours that i've listened to but would you say that your inaugural interest in martial arts came from kind of domestic distress and stuff you're having a difficult home life and not a good relationship with your stepdad am i right it was that but it was it was also move moving more than anything i mean i missed stepped as a

nice guy um but it was stepped out it's always a weird situation you know no one likes the dynamic of someone having sex with their mother i remember having similar feelings about my own step that wasn't a great guy though i don't want to like not of course paying them in a bad way it's just what was really hard was moving a lot and running into bullies that was way harder than anything else so there was a time in your life where you felt very presumably vulnerable yeah and not grounded didn't have any friends constantly moving in new neighborhoods meeting new people and uh you know and when you're a young boy you're a teenage boy teenage boys

are [ __ ] dangerous yeah they're the worst they're the worst if you see a group of them now i'm talking about my country 13 14 years old are across the street yeah they're lawless well young boys are just they're always looking to impress each other and they they have these if you want to find real toxic masculinity it exists in teenage boys yeah and it's mostly exaggerated in men the way it's described is mostly exaggerated in terms of the way the media talks about it but in its purest form and teenage boys they get together and they start lighting frogs on fire and doing [ __ ] they do things because

they want to like one-up each other and they feed off of each other like what one boy would do is so different than what five boys would do what five boys would do could be horrific but what one boy would do on his own is very rarely there because what you know you have to think about yourself and think about is this right and you objectively analyze the way you're behaving and like um yeah people wouldn't be proud of me if i did it this way but when you're with five other boys and you're you're all rambunctious and filled with testosterone and piss and vinegar you wind up doing crazy things this is i you know when i hear something

like that it's difficult to think that it's of course relative relative to us the behavior of adolescent mouse is reckless and crazy it's not impossible to conceive of an intelligence that would look at the behavior of adult human beings and think oh my god what are what's governing these people what principles are they using right now like what's the end goal too like what are you trying to accomplish with your life with your existence with your time i think if there's a real concern about ai i think the real concern is ai is going to rationally analyze our behavior and our

reliance on emotions and all these human reward systems that we have built in the way it's affecting our society and the way it's affecting how we govern ourselves and how we behave amongst ourselves and it's going to think we're unfixable it's going to look at it like well this is they have too much monkey in them they have so much monkey instincts and monkey dna but now they live in this rational modern world of you know 5g internet on your phone and satellite communication and 24 7 news cycle but yet they have these primate genes artificial intelligence a subject about

which i know very little it seems to me that it will on some level have to be derived from a particular aspect of human understanding of rationalism so we're representing one aspect of our nature and prioritizing it logic uh organization but what you refer to as sort of primitive and monkey-ish for me it envelops and involves the most beautiful aspects of our nature i'm a little romantic about human beings still i still feel that i feel that one of the great problems we've had is that philosophically we have overvalued materialism rationalism and like you

know knowing a little bit about philosophy primarily from that bloody podcast that you and i tagged a minute ago before we was recording who classifies this so like what what i understand for that is that post enlightenment we've started to prioritize rationalism so if you prioritize rationalism and organization which obviously has a lot to offer the organization of resources is incredibly and hugely important you forget that a huge part of the human experience is nothing to do with that the other thing we were chatting about before we went live was dmt now no artificial intelligence is going to understand that

there is access to a realm of consciousness that continually exists that doesn't seem to be bound by physical laws as we understand them and if the physical laws that we abide by are parochial and relevant only to this level of existence why are we allowing ideas resourced from there to govern all of our systems you know even listen to you talk about the mt and you know i encountered these gestures their gestures i went through this membrane into another realm and checking out mike tyson when he was on here no no no yeah i love that that moment was amazing like

like like that clearly like you know i only i took acid when i was a teenager and even in very unhealthy not unhealthy but i'm bridled mad teenage boy conditions i you know i want to be there with a guy in a lab coat with a pen going well mr brown sit down look at these raw tests instead of which i mean new cross in a bed sit dropping acid and staring at my own hands and recognizing oh my god i'm not me the very idea of me is a construct i'm just tuned into a particular aspect ai will build systems that are that are predicated on rationalism organization and i on on that basis i can see why they would at some point yeah go off skynet and

annihilate us but that is i believe the problem with our society is that the materialistic aspect of our nature is not the priority it's just one thing we should be doing of course we need good roads because we need hospitals schools food etc but we need to find a way of honoring the sacred and i'm fascinated in the experiences you're having in these psychedelic explorations and how it's influencing the rest of your life like how you're saying like how you're how does it influence the rest of your decisions the way you see the world the way you see relationships the way you see the vulnerable young man you were prior to building your own i

say personal religion of martial arts excellence in your chosen field of stand-up comedy how do you incorporate that vulnerable kid because i'm still very aware of the vulnerable person i was and like i'm going on a rant man um like when kevin hart was on here who i think is amazing and he was amazing on this i thought [ __ ] hell like what have i got to offer the world when kevin hart has got this kind of force like you don't come in the bubble and i was like my god this guy's so positive what a role model what a lot he's got to offer and then i thought well like any of us what i've got to offer is who i am just

who i am as a vulnerable flawed human being that still feels connected to the kid i was when i didn't feel good enough i still feel that i can walk in a room and feel that but i also know that that's that's not real because i've had spiritual experiences hallucigenic experiences that make me feel that the relationships we should be building have to honor that we are both we're vulnerable and flawed but also capable of greatness there has to be room for all of this and i feel that part of what we're doing and part of why we're experiencing such superficial polarity in politics and culture is because we're not acknowledging that underneath this

surface activity of left right left right and you know from sam harris them little experiments you stick garbage in front of someone they become republican pretty quickly or you know you scare people they become less democratic you know i think all that stuff is pretty superficial and at depth in that realm of the jesters and the membrane of psychedelia we have access to oneness and that should be what's influencing the way we set up our tribes our systems and our relationships yeah i think when a guy like kevin hart shows you what a a positive and motivational uh impact one person can have

just with his words and his deeds and the way he lives his life he's so inspirational that you realize uh that that that is possible that you you can share that energy and that you can have these experiences with people where they literally do actually they actually uplift you like i like was uplifted by his conversation i felt like wow that guy is so positive what a great way to look at the life that we're living and the more people do that the better and when someone like that does spread a positive message you know and obviously he's got he's

materialistic as well he's got a bunch of cars in a big house and he makes a lot of money and he does a lot of movies but what he's spreading is this very motivational very positive message and that affects people in a very positive way too and all that left right [ __ ] and all this the all the the battles that we have politically and ideologically back and forth and all the negative venom that people spray at each other at the end of the day this is not benefiting anyone unless you're fighting some a major demon that the world needs to conquer

and most of the most of it's not that most of it is like finding demons out of innocuous things you know and i think when you talk about what what you have to offer what you have to offer is that you are you that you have this unique perspective you you can affect the way people view their own journey in life because you've been so introspective and so aware of your own pros and cons in terms of your past behavior your current behavior and who you are now and who you used to be all that stuff is fuel for people because they can relate they hear it i mean maybe they cannot relate to being a

movie star and being this famous guy and this truck but they can relate to the humanity of your struggle they put themselves in your position like what must that have been like and look at this guy who's made these conscious decisions to not be like that anymore he dresses like a homeless person with a crazy beard that's the real take-home information dress like you live out of doors yeah just like you're a homeless guy in oregon [Laughter] specifically there people respect that yeah it's like dark colors you know it rains a lot yeah yeah i get it i get the

reference i understand american culture joe rogan yeah so um hey can i do some like promotional productivity tell me what it's called what is it this book is called mentors and actually i like i read it bits of it again because i knew i was coming here and i think it's actually pretty good like i wrote quite a lot about brazilian jiu-jitsu you really love it huh yeah i do my writing is not from a you'll understand not from a technical perspective i'm not saying this is what i've got to say on open guard to transition i'm talking about how the psychological impact that it's had on me and also in there about like the

protocols of going to a group which as a beginner are very relevant like you touched on how ritualized it is i've got a hunch that the more we emulate and connect to original ways of human behavior whether that's dietary or hierarchies or organization of groups i feel that we will feel a sense of greater connection now the thing i got from the gundam bjj class classes genesis where i go in back in england it's like that all the white belts get changed at one end of the room the purple belts and above get changed at the other end of the room which coincidentally or not is where the control for the timer is and the control

for the music is and where the kit is that's all up that rooms at end of the room so all the control is that end but it begins with sort of dancing around in a circle doing all of those various exercises now lift your knees now do the shrimping and that kind of stuff is that a lower belt shouldn't invite a higher belt to spa or roll you know it's and like as you say the amount of respect the bowing the handshaking at the end of it it's so sort of it provides such a safe environment in which to deal with the primal i can see why it's valuable and it's like you know i should have been taught that [ __ ] when i was 14 13 like

it was mandatorily so that i didn't come across it like you know you're not going to be setting fire to fields and allotments and putting frogs on fireworks if you've got a way of dealing with that primal energy yeah when when it's coming some people that don't understand that think that you should suppress it somehow you should just ignore it or suppress it they don't understand that for men it really if you're a biological male it really needs to be tackled head on i mean you really you really need to and embrace what it is to be a physical male and it

frees you in a lot of ways do you think this might be a comparable moment to in the 1960s when there was a sort of a sense of sexual repression versus sexual free love you know the images of woodstock and flowers in their hair and smoking joints and having sort of sex outdoors in mud or possibly wheat that that that this time of like a kind of an anger about maleness you know and and malnus may not as you said it may be a biological male but it could be the energy of i don't know assertion or whatever these like you know as in grammar male and female relate to certain words as in french grammar where i don't know

cat is female and dog is male i don't know the system i don't speak french but i'm saying that these we have labelled these energies and it does seem that uh that there is a particular what i want to say a condemnation of male energy do you think you think it comes from a misunderstanding yeah and i also think it comes from a big generalization too yes it's easy to do right and if you're a woman who's had negative experiences with men maybe you've dated men that have been physically abusive or maybe you've known men that have been physically abusive and you you're around that and you just uh it's it's very

convenient and very easy to just generalize and decide that all men are negative masculine energy is negative and especially white males and if you say that you'll get props online people go yes girl yes clap clap clap people get excited but those are also people that are short-sighted like you want to make as many people your ally as you can you want to make as many people your friend as you can and you have to understand that there's some people that are just wired different than you there's some there's some girly girls and there's some really feminine men and then there's some masculine men and then

every and but everybody is okay as long as they respect you and they're kind to each other but the problem is we associate certain behaviors and characteristics with either negativity or hedonism or uh toxic masculinity or someone being a [ __ ] as a man and that's these generalizations are often way more harmful and just it's just too convenient and easy and lazy yeah there is no simple way and when i think about my own attitudes in this area there is a degree of complexity because i've got young daughters i've got a two-year-old and a one-year-old right and they're you

know daughters so like but when the other day because i'm staying in los angeles gabby she's mexican she used to when i first moved out here and lived my entourage lifestyle she used to look after the house and she used to think oh my baby my baby she loved me so and i'd like i'll take a matriarchal figure wherever i can find one and gabby used to look after me she adored me and stuff i stayed friends with her yesterday she come around she bought like uh like what i can only describe as a bikini for like my baby daughter like what a two-year-old doesn't need like like a bikini like top and i excuse me burping on the mic i like it for me i

thought i don't want to put my daughter in that that's sort of in a way sexualizing the like that child and like coming so and also a lot of the time like with my daughter i don't like with my wife particularly my first child i'm like don't dress her up in little dresses and stuff because she won't be able to like run around and i thought my god i'm not that's not that different from like the cliche of a male parent that wanted a son and i didn't want a son or you know in particular i love this kid i love this kid regard you know it doesn't mean i love having a daughter adore her but like i am aware that these things of like dress a child this

way dress a girl this way our constructs further to what we were talking about again before about michelle foucault we got a lot done before we went live man like when we were talking about michelle foucault what he exposes a lot is that there and uh deluge guild the lose is that a lot of things that we take for granted as being normal are actually constructs and when i say a child's bikini i think there's no reason for any child of any sex or gender to be wearing a bloody bikini so a child with tits is a terrifying idea for all but a very small and terrifying percentage of the population so like that is an example of the external

feminization of a child like so when there's an argument a feminist argument of you know gender is a construct i can see oh yeah to a point it is there is there are constructs kind of like my opinion is you can't argue with biology chromosomes are doing what they're doing in the physical realm but like uh i you know like being a father to a daughter has made me feel like i don't obviously and i know you have daughters or at least eight or three three daughters like like i'm certainly very aware of i don't want to push them down some culturally prescribed avenue whether it's about their dress their sexuality or anything

so i've got you know where do i where am i on that dial you know yeah you gotta just not put any pressure on them and let them enjoy their life and let them find their path that's what that's what's weird right it's like i see people they're you know they're getting their their daughters to dress very very feminine with little mini skirts and stuff and they're five years old and high heeled shoes i've seen little kids with high heel shoes his name is very strange to me i don't like it yeah well so you know but for me that is being sourced from like can't we can extrapolate that to

well then why should a 20 year old woman wear high heels i mean i've read cultural analysis i'm sure you have like well the lipstick is to emphasize the lips because it's red of the vagina the high heels is to make a woman seem more vulnerable and to accentuate aspects of body shape now this can be you know seen as evidence of the influence of patriarchy you know there's loads of areas where i feel like why are we looking for [ __ ] to argue about in this area we're just human beings most of us the most important people in our life are of the of the diff of a different

gender or sex to us you know why we're looking for arguments but i can you can see the influence of cultural forces that are you know not neutral yeah you certainly can but i think it should be up to the choice of the person once they're an adult the real problem is putting pressure on them to dress one way or another and not letting them find their place but if a woman becomes you know whatever age you decide and she wants to wear high heels and a skirt because she likes the way it looks like there's nothing wrong with that either our the demonization of sexuality is also a

problem you know yes it is almost as much of a problem as people who will prey upon vulnerable people the the people people that think there's something wrong with being sexually attractive or something wrong with being desirable or wanting to be desirable there's nothing wrong with that either and that kind of suppression the suppression of the these feelings that you have and this desire that you have is very unhealthy as well it's a normal thing to want to be sexual it's a normal thing to want to look good if a girl looks good in a skirt a skirt in high heels and she likes to dress

like that who the [ __ ] is anyone to say there's anything wrong with that there's nothing wrong with it it's if that's what she likes that's fine which isn't what's interesting to me is particularly in really progressive ideology they look down upon women who wear short skirts and high heels and a lot of makeup and you know open tops that show their boobs because they think that it's they're playing into the patriarchy or that they're somehow or another falling into these gender traps but yet they celebrate that in transgender people they celebrate that in trans men that

transition to women and then they they they really doll it up and then they're like you go girl then they're celebrating the fact that this person is embracing these traditional aspects of womanhood like you see that a lot with you know people that are celebrating trans women so i find very fascinating the aesthetics of uh the sort of what would be perhaps could be referred to as a sexualized dress or like a i suppose in males expressio expressive or garish clothing jewelry tattoos in i understand in british culture that these are often indicators of class that like that it's typically the lower down the class structure you

are the more likely you are to dress in a way that is exhibitive or like you know women from a blue collar background dress in ways that are exposing and revealing men have leary cars and lots of tattoos and jewelry expressive ways of demonstrating wealth the higher you go up the class the more subtle the more dressed down no labels all that stuff stuff like you know so in british culture there's a different system of like a different system for referencing it i wonder how that works in american culture with it sort of like it's evident and much discussed racial divisions like certain things it seems like a subtle way of

condemning particular types of womanhood that may not just be sourced from dressed this way for the male gaze it can also be a way of saying dressing that way is an indication of a lower class background or of a particular type of ethnicity but there's also the reality of males and females is there's a lot of [ __ ] jealous people and there's a lot of women that just don't have the type of physical body that looks good in a short skirt with high heels and you know a low-cut shirt and they don't like when they see it in other women because they don't they're not comfortable with

their own bodies there's a reality of that i mean women get as much or more hate from women as they ever do for men and particularly if women find you to be too uh overtly sexual with the way you dress or behave that you are you're you know you're damaging male female relationships you're damaging the dynamic particular office dynamics if there's one girl in the office that likes to [ __ ] it up you know and she's uh and all the guys are paying attention to her women will get mad at her i um did an interview a while ago where i sort of talked about like parenting our kids me

and my wife how we parent our kids and i said like uh you know guys i have to be honest my wife is much the more dominant parent she's much more practical than i am right and like stuff that got that got like really negatively written about people said like like oh she changes more diapers than i do and stuff right but i look not like i don't change diapers or whatever it's just my wife you know regardless of our respective sexes is the more efficient dominant parent she's much more likely with like with me if my daughter goes i want that chocolate the answer to from me is are you all right you know like i can't bear to see the the resistance the emotional

explosion i concede much too early i tap out very quickly with with my two-year-old my wife is much more known it's played a long game let's bring up a child that's not governed by impulses like you and i spoke in fact to that gabor mate that expert on addiction he's amazing and he says because of your own anxiety and pain from your own childhood with no disrespect to my magnificent parents uh like you can't handle seeing your kid suffer so you like straight away you bail and do what she wants and stuff now like so there's so much complexity in the reality of our personal little domestic

relationship i'm certainly we're not saying and everyone else should run their household in that manner as well and so help me god any man that changes it up you know but the way it was reported he's like that's what happens i think in modern media is they change what you say then you have to defend what they said you said well that ain't what i meant i'd like you know i'm not saying that that because my wife is a woman she should take more domestic i'm just saying that in our household she seems to have a set of attributes and characteristics that make her take control of that aspect of parenting

and it's like the the desire to judge condem and object is the priority as opposed to you know no one's looking to go honest who cares or what you know well it's also that they're doing it publicly so they're doing it mostly i mean if you're you're either reading comments or you're reading articles and if you're reading articles they're just looking for something to be upset about they'll watch you and they'll say okay is this a viable target yes we got confirmation what he said about changing diapers or his wife being a better parent is a viable target let's go after him and then they just formulate some [ __ ]

argument about who you really are based on what might have been a throwaway or a concession to your wife or even just a compliment to your wife self-deprecating yourself yeah but it doesn't people they're not looking at things rationally they're just looking at targets particularly people that write articles you know what's the best article it's got to be negative like one of the things that came out of all this facebook algorithm stuff is you find out that facebook realized somewhere early on that the way to encourage engagement is to get people upset they they get way more engaged and

they go back and forth and and inter interact with these posts way more if they're upset than they do if they agree with it if they agree with it they might give it a like or a thumbs up and say hey that's great and that's it that's where it ends but if you know someone's talking about you know we shouldn't build the wall we should let everyone in and you put that on some [ __ ] trump guys page and they ah it's crazy i mean you will get thousands and thousands and thousands of interactions and so facebook realized that the way to keep people and you know they could claim that that it's an algorithm and

the algorithm just supports whatever the people are really interested in but what they're interested in is conflict that demonstrates my earlier point which i made up on the spot the ai is not a neutral thing it is resourced from human perspectives and because that is a type of ai not as complex as like what we're going to experience and i can't even imagine but what i'm saying is is it's still di uh what i want to say resourced from a human from a human perspective and yes of course we are evolved to respond more strongly to negativity than positivity for loads of reasons and i think that's where we can stitch back to what we were

saying about taking personal responsibility for who you are like that none of us have to sit on social media going [ __ ] you [ __ ] you uh you know none of us have to do that we can try and resolve those i i respect that some people don't have any other outlets they don't have the privileges i have of being out go a support groups where people openly talk about this is the ways that i felt inferior today this is the ways that i'm trying to become a better man and a better father and a better co-worker you know like a lot of people aren't afforded those environments and probably the best shot they got is having to go out with

someone online and those people you know in a way deserve love and sympathy but until we on some level recognize that we can alter our own behaviors we can all are our own consciousness i don't i don't see how there's going to be well at least then we can create a terrain upon which a better better systems can start to flourish do you read comments no i actually like i'm too sensitive i can just about manage to listen to people's replies to my conversation like you know like sort of like yeah i don't go on to like i have a like i work with someone who does my social media and like she gives me

stuff like here i'll respond to these things put some output on that because i don't uh i don't want to engage with that i don't want to like walk up and down any street knocking on the door going do you like me do you like me do you like me i don't want to deal with people's responses and various conditions well it's also much like the articles with the way people get a response out of you or the way to people to get your reaction is to say something really negative you know you look at some sometimes when people are not that savvy when it comes to social media one thing's one of the things that you'll notice is they'll

enter and i've been guilty of this in the past before i sort of realized what i was doing you would only respond to negative things like people are arguing with people meanwhile people are saying nice things to you and you ignore them yeah it's because you don't you don't you at a certain level you don't have the physical time it doesn't exist to respond to everyone it's not possible there's no if you get 13 000 comments on one of your posts how the [ __ ] does anyone have time to respond to 13 000 people you can't and then you have email and you have twitter and facebook and instagram and it's just

there's no way it's there's not enough time in this world so you would potentially would have responded to things that caused them more visceral if i saw someone saying something was untrue i'd be like [ __ ] you that's not true but then i realized like what do you why like what are you doing like this is a new thing for people there's never been a time where people have had this instantaneous interaction with people unfiltered unmoderated globally yeah and it's very strange to be able to do that and to be able to go back and forth and just just to be able to give your

comments on things to be able to talk about things it's very addictive to people yeah that's right and that's why i'm very cautious with it i have to sort of set my life out like i'm essentially a monk in a marriage that's basically where i live get up meditate do yoga do exercises do things that are positive for you watch the way that you're thinking i'm interested in where again in with your own do you feel uh connected to the person you were as an adolescent did you notice it in your own parenting do you notice it in the type

of choices you make because the image i have a view from the outside is like you have literally built something for yourself you operate within it and you are quite protected and you are independent and not forced to deal with too many negative outside influences but in unavoidable dynamics the unnecessary dynamics like uh you know as a father and dealing with colleagues and stuff like that do you experience a lot of tension anxiety what what has happened to that guy do you feel that you have transcended that because i do in my own life i feel like yeah i'm not the adolescent boy i was i've like you know i've learned from that and i still

in a very sort of cod psychological way you know when i'm doing uh hibiro that's the bjj classes i'm doing over here with uh professor ricardo will he's an amazing guy like when i'm when i'm doing those classes i have a sense of fathering my child's self of like you know because i weren't doing those kind of things when i was a kid i'm like all right russell we're just in a bjj class just relax don't need to panic don't need to impress anybody right just do that if you don't know just ask i've got a voice in myself because i chat to tony robbins you know he's like

another obviously high achieving guy who i admire and respect a great deal and like you know when he talks he does like these cold plunges and he says before i get in that plunger you're getting in that [ __ ] punch like he told us my god i don't talk to myself like i'm like right russell we're going to get in the cold plunge we're going to relax like i have to talk to myself gently what are you doing with that aspect of yourself do you still have a relationship with it how is it like when you're doing all these psychedelic cosmonautic explorations of the psyche are you not encountering aspects of yourself that are un if undeveloped unaddressed

there's always going to be unaddressed and undeveloped aspects of yourself but i'm very very very different to who i was when i was a young boy i mean um i'm i'm not 100 self-actualized i don't think anybody is but i'm just a totally different human being i remember it but i remember it with humor like i remember a laugh i'm like wow so silly i was so weird back then and uh you know with life experience and developing confidence and understanding of who you are and why you had those feelings and why you were insecure and why you had so much self-doubt martial arts helped me with uh with that

tremendously because it was the first thing that i ever did where i didn't feel like a loser it's like the first thing that i ever did where people like respected me and they liked me for it you know i'm like wow this is like something it was a feeling that i was completely unused to in the 14 previous years of my life all of a sudden there was this this feeling that i was unusual i was unique i was special wow you know i was appreciated you were good at quick yeah i was i had a natural inclination towards it and i was obsessed with it so i was obsessed with this i was training every day all day long and then my

instructor recognized it really early on so he allowed me to train there for free and just i would teach classes and teaching classes helped me a lot as well because when you're teaching you're breaking down techniques and you're you know you when you're showing someone how to do it you're really cementing those pathways in your own mind yeah yeah that's right that must be an important step on the road to mastery i see that clip where eddie bravo gave you your black belt and you were very moved by that like so for me that like moments like that it must connect you to the beginning of the journey yeah that

does yeah for sure and it's still you know the the journey of jiu jitsu is a fascinating one because unless you're someone who's you know a salubero or a john jacques machado or just a true master who has dedicated their entire life to it the journey's so long it's so long it's like if you're a guy who runs you like to run i like to run a mile three or four days a week no big deal but then you know your next door neighbor is an ultra marathon runner is preparing for the the moab 240 where he's going to run 240 miles you're just you're never going to catch up the same amount of times and you should always defer to that person when

you have questions about running and that's how it is with jiu jitsu because you know yeah i'm a black belt but i'm not a black belt like john jacques machado as a black belt is that there's levels to even to that so i always have questions so the journey is never over it's always long there's always a a better way to get out of an arm bar or a better way to set up a triangle or whatever it is there's the one of the beautiful things about jiu jitsu is that it's so complex there's so many variables there's so many situations and interactions and exchanges and entries and defenses and and and way to chain moves together and the correct way to

set something up two three steps ahead to know that if you grab the lapel this way the guy's gonna try to shake it off that way and that exposes this which exposes that and then the next defense will expose this and then you keep going and going and going and going until you get them it's so beautiful to watch that because it's like as if there's a pre-existing net or grid of interrelated signs that will work together and like as a white belt i've got three stripes now i was like thanks i was really hoping that by the time i came back on here i would have a blue belt and that could be closing in on it i'm really working on a train i'm

training three times a week private and i'm attending two classes and what i've done that's great thanks a lot and what's a significant step for me is like now in the classes when i'm sparring people i don't try just in the handshake to manipulate them into going easy i said god you look so lovely today if we go then when you try to manipulate people yeah like just a subtle gesture or something like that right right right just try to take it easy on me come on don't hurt me come on you uh avoid big people yeah sometimes i try and stay down that white belt into the room but like now

the more i do it like the more they coax me up there great big giant men like uh like there's a guy that got like the sort of one's up arrow like the hard end purple belt above dave uh paul busby and like there's people like their hands and their feet look different to my hands and feet as different than their hands and feet are as different from mine as mine are to my daughters and i feel like how am i supposed to ever do anything with these people like hard water like drowning in hard water the way they move and fold around me i'm like oh what i would like to say what am i supposed to do my breathing goes but the thing is with other white belts

is that uh what i feel is like there is my ego comes back in because i feel like no i should be getting something the first time i got choked out by another white belt i felt like i went into a room i'd not been in since i was 16 getting my head kicked in in bus stops you know and stuff like this i felt like i was quiet for 24 hours just sitting and reflecting on oh [ __ ] and i had to speak to other people this happens you're going to experience right right so it doesn't mean i'm a bad person that i've failed no no you're gonna have to get used to that if you're gonna get

used to humiliation you get used to defeat but it's it's that humbling is very good for you you know i mean i i don't know how many times i've been tapped out in my life but it's probably more than a thousand probably probably thousands you know yeah and there uh do you sit there while i tell you about jiu jitsu and the other and the other thing that's been good about it is like when it is the other way like i remember like a guy that was a big guy on top of me and like i was he oh he was in mount right and like he wasn't actually applying a submission but there's just the sheer discomfort of

having someone there their body their sweat their hair their abdomen their reproductive organs their digestive system feces in their bowel on top of me i just nearly tapped out that but then he went to move to get an umbrella hang on a second there's a moment and i managed to escape from that and like the amount of energy that that releases like [ __ ] you justice now i win justice that's hilarious yeah yeah this is a very satisfying feeling it's also very satisfying to to defend against something that someone

used to catch you with like say if someone's really good at taking your back yeah choked you a couple times and then one time they take you back but you defend and you get out you're like i got out yes there's an escape i can make this i'm getting better i love being in the cave that mental space because what my technique was oh i'm not good at that never bother trying i'm not good at that kind of stuff never bother trying so for me at this stage in my life to go and do something that i'm not good at that's with other men that's competitive they involve so much vulnerability and failure and learning i'm thinking well you've you're growing you've got to be

growing so you're doing stuff that you never would have done before even turning up at a new place like i'm doing here in la and making those new relationships and doing that you know it's amazing for me another thing i'm into is the integrity of it right because chris clear a black belt under roger gracie right in uk my teacher like if he gave me a blue belt that would look good man it would be videoed it would i would tweet it it would be everywhere oh russell brown got blue belt this [ __ ] must work but no he doesn't do it out of integrity and respect for that you know it means more to him evidently than a sim the act of

kindness you know so like what is nice to belong to something that has protected and valuable systems he did say to me you keep going by the end of the year blue belt i think but like uh you know it's not dished out like it's nice to know that there's some kind of order an area where celebrity manipulation charm human none of those things all redundant all redundant no in jiu jitsu it's very protected anyone that gives out a bad belt it's very bad for their integrity it's the the the school would lose face so badly in the community and you meet someone who's a hicks and

gracie brown belt that [ __ ] is a hicks and crazy brown belt he's as legit as they get they don't get any more legit like if you got to that point of hicks and gracie gives you a brown belt it's just it's irrefutable and that's how it should be and it's a beautiful thing about the art form is that it has this self-correcting sort of aspect to it that when you roll when you spar with each other it your ability or lack of is exposed and there's no other way around it yeah that's good to not avoid that yes but you'll be better you know you're you're a fit guy you're a healthy guy if

you just keep going get off that [ __ ] vegan diet and keep going i watched the documentary um called what the health have you seen it's like yeah it's filled with a lot of propaganda propaganda damn those guys are getting like the nazis i remember them it's they used a lot of discredited studies and there's a lot of epidemiology studies that will connect things what does that mean like an epidemic no we could pull up what the actual it's about time jamie pulled something up episode but the way i would describe it is they would do these studies and essentially

it would be they would they would ask you what you eat on a daily basis how often to eat meat how and it's basically a survey and in in that survey they would say well there's a direct correlation between people that eat meat and diabetes so let's pull up the definition oh i see but the problem is what is causing here a branch of medicine which deals with incidence distribution and possible control of diseases and other factors relating to health um so when they're when they're dealing with incidents right they're dealing with how

often do you eat red meat how often do you eat this how often you eat that and then they find oh well there's more instances of diabetes in people that eat meat okay but is it people that eat meat and vegetables or is it people that eat meat and vegetables and diet coke and sugary sodas and ice cream and french fries and how are they eating their meat are they eating cheeseburgers for some [ __ ] fast food place are they eating grass-fed steak are they eating grass-fed steak and vegetables and there's very little evidence that shows there's anything wrong with eating meat if you follow a normal healthy what

they would call a primal diet cut out all the grains cut on all the sugar cut out all the [ __ ] eat vegetables and meat and there's almost nothing i mean unless you have some very unusual rare condition where you're either allergic to meat or you have some very strange digestive system where you find you have allergies to it or you have real problems digesting it or you have real problems with high cholesterol foods which is very rare as well most of what you're getting is vegan propaganda people that want other people to be convinced that the way that

they're living is the correct way and that eating meat is is physically bad for you and it's causing all these harms what's causing all the harm for people physically is the modern american diet and that's been pretty established yes that's right and there are clear ethical reasons to be vegan in that it takes you out of the exploitation of animals but that documentary what the health that i watched was like you know i've been vegetarian for years and this like and i've gone back and forth to veganism because i feel god jesus christ man there's enough things in my life i'm not doing without not being i have an egg without feeling good you could have

passed your raised eggs if you get them from a good farm the chickens are just hanging out i've got chickens in my garden yeah i'm not confident in these animals and the way that well one by one slowly my dog's eliminating the gift of life i lost nine of them to coyotes just last month maybe two months ago that's a pretty heavy heavy toll yeah well we had a fire out here and the chicken coop burnt down we got a smaller chicken coop and the coyotes figured out how to get into it when we're at home and we came home to just feathers everywhere it was disgusting oh that's brutal they're

they're brutal little monsters those coyotes yeah yeah you know ungovernable they're the reason why we don't have rats everywhere too all right so yeah it's the circle of life the lion king was right so like hey though um the thing that about that vegan documentary mate is that it it tuned in to my pre-existing belief when it said stuff like oh the diabetes association they are funded by these meat and dairy organizations and these pharmaceutical companies the cancer organization similarly accepts donations from these organizations and it made me recognize like my pre-existing idea that

i come to it with is you know like that whole pyramid of these are the things you should eat bread milk you know it just were the things that it was easy and cheap to produce and that were profitable but they used to think that they really did used to think that bread would and grains are the most important thing do you think they felt that i think they did i think they thought it was it was filling and it provided energy and i don't think they understood well there was no talk of gluten intolerance when we were young that didn't exist and there was no understanding of excess carbs and how excess carbs leads to

excess body weight and it makes it makes you store fat and people didn't think about it that way they didn't understand there was the thing about nutrition is that nutrition science is a it's a body of knowledge that's constantly added to yeah and in fact perhaps most things are who knows what misapprehensions and ignorance we toil under that will be revealed to us do you do any uh i feel like i've heard you talk about hormone stuff yeah yeah i do hormonal replacement what type of things testosterone and human growth hormone do you have to give yourself a jab in the ass yeah you get in the thigh thigh you won't do the art out of simple pride no

it doesn't matter that's for mrs rogan i don't touch that your thigh's right there it's easy to grab when you're reaching back to putting your ass it's just like an awkward thing too ripple um yeah but they also have um you're taking like so you're taking growth hormone you've not noticed any negative side effects or insulin well you have to get your blood monitored you know when you when you're doing something like that this this is also if you're a person that has addictive problems addiction

problems which i don't necessarily have them as much with substances what do you have them um well you saw with video games when you got here the video game problem that i have yeah you're frantic you emerged out of that dark room you and your parents were sweaty and pie-eyed and baffled by the very fun too um martial arts i've been addicted to martial arts i've been addicted to playing pool i get addicted to getting good at things i get very addicted to things if there's something that i get obsessed with like jiu jitsu or whatever it is i get obsessed and that's all i think about all day long i

just had i just you know it's not healthy but with um hormones you want to make sure that you don't overdose yourself you want to make sure that you stay within a very narrow range where you're you know your you have what are the healthy levels of uh a person that's in their you know late 20s that's that's really what you want you don't want to have hyper human levels which some people do do hyper human you're going to create an odd ecosystem well you're [ __ ] up your body man you're just jolting yourself with all this extra [ __ ] what

are you about to take this sweet lady thyroid is that part of your system yeah i have i take armor thyroid it's actually made from pigs thyroids do you mean pigs firoids now yeah like hold on what's happened to the pig they're long gone they're not sort of struggling with a lack of thyroid teetering about all emasculated well this is like so yeah i'm interested in this hormone stuff i'm interested in that but you know me i've got to be very very like cautious about moodle or in stuff yeah but if you have the exercise regiment that

you're talking about i don't think you're going to have anything to get that blue belt i'm going to do what it takes man yeah bring me the pig i'll suck that thought of thyroid out of it directly you should eat eggs though man you really should you should eat you should eat some animal protein without i mean if you oppose the moral aspect of killing an animal which i totally understand and appreciate and that's what led me to become a hunter in the first place is that i was really uncomfortable watching these animal rights videos of factory farming i thought it was disgusting i

was like i don't want to participate in this yeah it's reprehensible hunting is a different thing man to me hunting is this intense it's very spiritual in a way i mean people don't get it because they see you celebrating when it's over because it's very very very difficult to close in on a wild animal what are you hunting mostly elk well elk's my favorite for two reasons one it's very delicious super nutritious also if i shoot one elk i could eat it for like eight months salty yeah freezing them freezing so you're out stalking an elk on the plains where are you like near where you live you just go out

you travel on bikes or something how do you follow you can yeah you do travel on bikes if you're a whitetail hunt a lot of times you'll go into the woods with bikes because they don't leave a scent the way your feet do you know and um animals don't associate the sound of a bike the way they associate it with like the sound of stepping bipedal hominids stepping towards they've evolved oh yeah they see you on a bike they don't even freak out as much delightful never seen that but what's that my brain what are these things yeah yeah yeah elk are they like heard animals so you just see like a herd yeah yeah you see a

herd of them and you try to figure out which way the wind's blowing and you try to get close to them is this a video of us yeah this is a video that's from uh what a beautiful place i mean i can see the harmony of nature yeah so that's an elk now the thing is with me i see that elk there and i sort of feel like a sort of i've watched too much disney yeah um you know like i see that elk and i feel like i'm bambi literally you know like i don't have it like is that early in the morning you look yeah tired not tired it might be late afternoon actually can you take those late

afternoon yeah like say like i i from that position i couldn't like i would love the game of being able to own because actually i've had to go down gun ranges it turns out i'm pretty good shot and it's nice to see that thing come back with like holes around its abdomen and its head i think satisfied yeah you've been dealt with paper man but but like the elk i couldn't i've got too much empathy in me that i like i couldn't deal with the feeling of after it was shot i like it like almost thinking about it the sentimentality of it i've sentimentalized it now you know at least i don't eat meat and stuff like that so it's not like i have all those

feelings but can handle it in a packaged portioned off way yeah it's just i feel too much like oh that creature so what in your head when you're doing it when you're pulling the trigger you're not having what's going on in your mind well you you only are hunting these mature animals that have already passed on their genes you also are recognizing that if you're not killing these things they're not it's not like they're going to live forever they are they live a short life a short life with a very violent death it's either wolves or mountain lions or bears or something's going to take them out

yeah what you're doing is essentially dipping your toe into the natural world and i've heard the argument that well this is ridiculous because everyone can't do that you know if everyone went out and hunted all the animals there would be no animals left which is true but um i'm not everyone and yeah so i don't you know i can't really use that if everyone did the argument it's a good argument because you you if you're encouraging people to hunt it is kind of a good argument because it's not realistic it's not sustainable but the other thing to recognize is that the reason why most of this wildlife exists in the first place a lot of it

was wiped out in the early 20th century from what they call market hunting in the late late 19th century early 20th century um they you know they didn't have refrigeration and uh it was hard to get food and we didn't have the same sort of large-scale agriculture that we have today and so when someone would want meat they would uh somebody would either have to hunt it for you and you would go to the market and and get that hunted food or you would go out and do it yourself and they basically wiped out most of the wildlife in north america to the point of extinction whitetail deer elk they've

been extirpated from the majority of their range in north america and only been replaced in a few other places but the places where they've been replaced it's all through money that was generated through hunting tags all through billions and billions of dollars there's a thing called the robertson pikmin i think that's what it's called act where uh 10 if you buy hunting gear and equipment 10 of that money goes to habitat restoration making sure that uh rangers and forest people get funded so there's uh the fish and game department gets funded and all and also population conservation making

sure that the populations are healthy repopulating certain areas with elk and deer and this has all been done through the money that's generated through hunting yeah i can see that there's a looking at my own feelings towards it i can see that there's a potentially i'm bringing a sentimentality to the idea of animals that's like anthropomorphic yeah like i'm like oh you can't kill that it what about it's babies you know like thinking about things like that um but what i you know i live in a rural area in britain where like hunting is normal and i wouldn't and agriculture is normal and i wouldn't

get very far if i was like you can't shoot those pheasants look at their feathers they're beautiful you know i mean like it wouldn't it's not a helpful attitude so whilst i like record like in myself i couldn't do that because like i don't it messes me up on a sort of a feels like a very sort of deep visceral level you know like but i feel like this is precisely the kind of territory where we have to look at acknowledging and tolerate indifference between us this is where i feel like the sort of these ossified polarized positions between right and left are starting to take root because if someone like me who don't eat meat don't eat

animal products and wouldn't hunt for ethical reasons starts trying to impose on other people now you shouldn't hunt because of this that have you not watched bambi you know like that's going to mean that people aren't able to explore who they are so and so my per i've let go of judging people around things that i don't agree with because i reckon i don't know everything you know i mean i'm this this is like this is about my morality is about how i behave and if people said to me i'm thinking about going hunting i'd go well these are my feelings about it however though i just heard that hunting does contribute

apparently to the survival of some species and there is an argument that it's quite natural and indigenous and it's probably a way of getting in contact with who we are originally as hunting people it's an important part of our anthropological history and possibly a lot of the condemnation of hunting is part of the rejection of who we used to be as we become overly civilized and more and more detached from what it is to be human whether that's sacred or pragmatic we don't know what human beings are anymore we reject our own sexuality we reject our own bodies we reject you know we're trying to turn ourselves into these sort of cyborgs

these emotionless sexless meaningless creatures where is our passion where is our connection with the sacred they would go hold on i only asked you about hunting when are you going to stop talking never you gave me an in i will pummel you with my belief system on all things like you know like so i don't feel like that ain't where i get a judging people um but like i'm interested as well with this i keep bringing up the subject of dmt uh like what i guess what i want to know about is like because i i'm you know obviously a person in recovery i don't drink i don't

take drugs haven't done for a long time and i recognize for certain people that they they can't do it safely psychedelics and hallucinogens it seem to me exist in a realm outside of that because they're not about they're not pleasure seeking there's like seem to me like it's a spiritual portal however i'm a crafty bastard when it comes to this stuff and i'm always looking for an inn you know when i see your cannabis treasure trove over there i mean that is some yeah as you said like raiders of the lost ark stuff and i'm holding in my hand now the cbd rich cannabis soft gels clasping it you know so like i'm

worried that that is a gateway that cbd which is not necessarily psychoactive because there's no psychological it's not but it does help you with anxiety it helps a lot of people because it alleviates a lot of uh inflammation which tends to have a corresponding impact on on your anxiety hold on so this says here 11 milligrams of thc does that mean i mean it says thc it does say that the bottom probably one is this a one to one it might be or it's like 18 to one or eleven it says there's an eleven and a one there's a couple different ones in that box oh i gave you almost gave you the wrong one joe what's next

a bag of smack don't take that this one guys i think this one this one's way more powerful that's one to one yeah you seem do seem very relaxed and free from anxiety i will say that um but like so like what i suppose i'm interested in because look listen i'm meditating the whole like i meditate a lot i'm doing all these things i'm experiencing transcendent states i'm experiencing what it's like to not feel attached to my identity as russell who are you before you are russell who are you before you identify yourself as a man in england who are you who is the person who is the

consciousness who is the awareness now when i listen to say terence mckenna talking about his experiences in psychedelia at such length and with such lucidity and with so many philosophical connotations and the way that he uses the information he's getting from hallucigenics um experiences to speculate on how we should organize society what the implications are for freedom his refusal to accept that there are certain kind of experiences that should be prohibited that it's ridiculous that adults should be prevented from having that i i'm fascinated but i'm also i suppose part of my bias is i love

anything that gets me out of my head i feel a tremendous sense of relief whether it's through meditation or even sport or sex being relieved of the burden of the constantly thinking mind but when i hear like those um vivid ex descriptions of dmt realm or wescor i think something in me hungers for that hungers for it do you worry that you're trying to get intoxicated you worry that you're but you're trying to find a loophole yeah because i am doing that i'm looking for a loophole it's like i'm going around like a sort of a trash lawyer looking for some way to get into there hold on a second what about this lawyer that's a

great way of putting it yeah i mean uh i know people that have problems with addiction that have done psychedelics and didn't have a problem but i'm sure some people have had problems and i don't know about them dmt is interesting in that first of all it's very quick the experience is only about 15 minutes 20 minutes max and it's also it's not necessary it's not intoxicant in the way that you would think about traditionally you are still you in in the face of this experience and i think i think it's some sort of a chemical gateway that's what i think i think there's a gateway in your mind that can

lead to some other dimension that's probably there all the time if there is a uh omnipresent continually existing realm that human beings aren't accessing because of the particular biochemical formulation of consciousness as it is in this point in our evolution yeah and that we can get there and it seems as like you know i've heard terence mckenna say it's more real you know it's more real there's stuff in there you know and excuse me and when he talks about them beings you know like that he describes himself dribbling basketballs creating like faberge egg like you know devices through vibration and it tells

you to do it i never saw him i wouldn't that i wanted he's called the machine elves he's called them all sorts of different things the way i've described them is they're the geometric patterns made out of love and understanding that's how they seem like so you read you can look at a geometrical pattern and read meaning into it it had an emotional quality they're made out of something and they move they change like they don't stay what they are they're constantly evolving in front of you into something more and more beautiful it's very weird what did it make you feel like i knew nothing that was the most profound aspect like

all of this stuff that you concentrate on every day is nonsense and there is some other thing that's connected that's probably influencing this world yeah and it's probably what what people see when they have near-death experiences the depictions of the afterlife i mean that's probably what it all is and religious experiences and when prophets are talking about oh my god i went into this realm there's these beings they've told me we're all one we have to love each other scholars in jerusalem are connecting moses's experience with the burning bush to the acacia tree the acacia tree which is rich in dmt the burning bush is what god was to moses

and that through this burning bush he came out with these ten commandments of how people should live their lives i mean that easily could have been just a very convoluted sort of translation of a dmt trip certainly and also when you think of certainly there are archetypal images that seem to be repeated throughout ancient cultures and archaic stories that seem to refer to the potential for plant experiences to affect consciousness even the garden of eden do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge yeah otherwise you will become as gods

you know like i sense that now if if there is some realm that we can reach through that experience that scene that puts into perspective everything that else we experience on the material realm and that thing seems to in your words be emanating love and understanding while ever changing completely formless and communicating love and understanding it for i can't help but think that that should become our priority to have a relationship with that realm and to bring about that experience i don't even mean in a literal way because even terence mckenna said there were some people vulnerable souls he was probably

referring to people like me that probably shouldn't mess around with that kind of thing he was really talking about people's schizophrenia right which he believed he had by the way did he yeah he he he had some very unique uh perspectives on schizophrenia and the the way people interact with the world itself i think if we lived in a healthy world uh a healthy civilization that had a healthy relationship with psychoactive substances we'd probably have centers where you would have a legitimate shaman a medical advisor and someone would take you through a guided experience we're doing that now with uh ketamine there's a lot of people that are very

depressed that are having these physician-controlled ketamine experiences that have had a profound effect on their depression my friend neil brennan's gone through several of them and he was he's a comedian a very funny comedian so when he was describing it was hilarious going to a doctor's office and tripping his [ __ ] balls off you know and the doctor's shooting him up with intramuscular ketamine oh my god yeah and he's having these insane so i go see you're having psychedelic experiences like oh yeah describing it was really funny um i mean tripping his [ __ ] balls off

in these whatever states that ketamine i've never experienced ketamine i don't know what it does but it's apparently profoundly uh hallucinogenic and you have these wild crazy experiences on it and for whatever reason it has a great impact on depression for a lot of people i think it's a prospective enhancer but it also does something to rewire the mind well what some of this suggests is that mental illness is a response to our material conditions whether that's whether that mental illness is schizophrenia depression or addiction it's like like people are going hang on a minute this isn't how

we're supposed to live i took that i mean one time towards the end of my using and as usual it's not in the right type of environment you should be doing stuff like that in a nightclub you need to be under that shamanic conditions white guy or whatever whoever you nominate as a shaman but i feel like it was like going into a tunnel made of sound and like having to navigate i was like oh [ __ ] i'm still in reality what am i going to do is it as my sort of consciousness becomes a noise instead of a string of words and signs how am i going to get out of this place you know so like for me it's clear that drugs were never meant to be

recreational in fact they never were i was never hey man this is crazy i was like i'm in [ __ ] pain i need some [ __ ] to help me out otherwise i'm gonna probably kill myself yeah you know so like it was a way of holding that stuff at arm's length so i guess my renewed curiosity around dmt and iowa and ayahuasca and other sort of plant medicines and like you know that do you know daniel pinchberg and like them guys that are sort of part of that i'm curious about it because i guess i'm continually trying to find a way where someone go right here's a way where we can do it where it's sort of safe and i've heard of other people in recovery

doing it and when i think about what my motivation is is when i hear people talking about and my own and my own recollections of experiencing what felt like god and by god i mean a sense of oneness and that my individual identity isn't my real identity and i'm connected to everything and love is the most important thing you know i i i want a real experience of that so that when i'm out in the world i can remember when i'm driving or when i'm dealing with people or if i'm buying something or if i'm feeling inferior or feeling superior that like you said this is [ __ ] this is like a secondary reality don't let it govern you you know as a someone that's

been seduced by fame a person like if i get this part in this film then everyone's gonna love me oh if this stand up set goes well you know like a person has placed all of my well-being outside of myself the certain knowledge that there is an inner connection that will take care of you that's accessible i guess i'm you know hungry to sort of feel it in a way that's like oh my god now there is no doubt so in a sense it's a crisis of faith not christ psychedelic states that you could achieve without taking anything i mean you could certainly get there um in a flotation tank you could get there through

holotropic breathing i've never done kundalini yoga but apparently the people that get really deep into kundalini yoga can literally have dmt trips i know i have friends that have done dmt and have experienced dmt trips through kundalini but you have to be really dedicated i mean there's a lot of time a lot a lot of time a lot of energy and you have to really understand the the methods and and follow them to a t and you can achieve these altered states of consciousness that are apparently you know not from my personal experience but from what people tell me incredibly

profound yeah i mean i've had comparable things i guess that what it's you know the difference between feeling something that's that overwhelming that gives you no choice you know like there's like it's not like you know kundalini you've got to do these breasts correctly you've got to sit there you've got try again have you done it yeah i don't know quite a bit well what for me it feels like what i felt quite a lot yogically and meditatively is a cessation of what i would call my individual consciousness like oh i'm not this this isn't who i am this is just a temporary experience and all of the value systems of our world

are built upon these primal drives in collaboration with a culture that likes to stratify people and manage people and operates like a massive farm where it's easier to keep people together operating in these kind of ways systemically i've sort of felt rushes of that like a certain wordless clarity if you can imagine me having anything that was wordless even for a moment and like and in that space you know there is there is great peace so i suppose like what's turning me on about the like the dmt and i wesker thing is that the way it's narrativized that they're gonna meet characters and stuff like that and it's and it's gonna be plain and beyond doubt

you know because i suppose what prophets do you know like whether you know when a prophet returns from the whether it's the burning bush or the cave they come back and they say all this stuff that you're taking seriously is not real there's this other realm start prioritizing it or you are going to live in hell on earth you're going to be governed by your materialistic drives your sexual drives and it's going to imprison you and it turns out that they're right and so like you know i suppose what i'm after because i'm partly you know on a super like on one level influenced by what you're doing and how you've created your own like you

create your own business and your own success like this this symbiosis of stand-up and the podcast and like it's become like a sort of a lifestyle brand in a sense joe like you know i'm sort of like yeah i don't i don't want to be continually dragged into these collabs like working within institutions like you know i'm over here doing a bloody i'm doing ballers and i'm bloody glad to be over here doing ballers and working with the rock and i've got a funny story about that if you want it like um but like uh you know like really what interests me is like can i be and then

can i dedicate my life to humorously communicating spiritual information and indeed starting to live it so like and i suppose what that would mean is you know i'm getting better that i'm not a person who's obsessed with porn or sex or drugs or whatever like you know to become it to become what you actually are to recognize that we're all different your perfect realization of you is going to involve hunt in and all of these things that you've created through your gift and that my perfect version of me is going to you know involve all of this and not everyone needs to be sort of empires or entertainment industries or whatever but

all of us are on some journey to self-actualization and realization as individual as our fingerprints and as natural as a seed turning into a tree and if we don't have a way of accessing that no wonder we're dissatisfied no wonder we're there's an opioid epidemic no wonder people are bored and angry and lonely well i think what you can do is be yourself and what you can do is express yourself and what you can do is constantly seek to improve and grow and you're doing those things so if you're saying can i do these things can i be comedic and spiritual and well you're doing it right so it can be done so it's do

you're doing it you know it's all just a matter of what whether or not you're satisfied with your progress and where you are and who you are and how you express yourself so your pursuit for excellence when you're saying i've got to get better at bjj or archery or hunting or whatever that isn't coupled with a sort of sense because you're not [ __ ] good enough so that's that's the no it's deal that i've got there's wonderment yeah i love it joy that's just joy in it and there's enthusiasm i mean in everything and archery in particular it's very you know there's that book zen in the art of archery

which is uh it's an interesting book uh it's you know i mean i think there's some really great points to it but that state of mind that you get when you release an arrow and that arrow perfectly finds its mark really is and it's you it requires so much concentration and focus and technique that you really don't think about other things beautiful and it's cleansing in a lot of ways it's mind cleansing i find jiu jitsu to be very similar in that way too that it's so all-encompassing it's so there's so much on the line it's so difficult to do that while it's happening you're freeing your mind up i

mean i think of video games in the same way all of these things so that's bizarre but like all of those things suggest a transmission between the inner and outer worlds isn't it you're looking at the bull's-eye and then oh my god i've made this thing traverse time and space or bjj i've been shown again and again how to execute this triangle and i've just actually done it against resistance it's amazing to feel that it's amazing to feel that your inner life can express itself in the material world whatever wherever you're looking to explore that and to test yourself and when you test yourself and you have to

figure your way through something or change the path because the path you're on was unsuccessful when you're doing that it's it's really good for the mind and for the i don't i hesitate to say the spirit because i think that word spirituality is so beaten down and abused you know what do you mean it's become commodified yeah it's like yeah it's like when people call themselves a healer like are you really yeah i've just done some healing on the way here with that guy we're all healing um i mean we really are all healing each other but um i think there's something to doing difficult tasks that it makes life easier i really believe that i

think it makes life more enjoyable i think it makes the bright colors brighter and and it makes the the dull colors even them even the the bad moments if you have real positive experiences with difficult things that you choose to do on your own i think it mitigates most of the hassle of life yes i agree with that that is again and i'm not particularly promoting this book because like uh i'm all right with however things do but the point of this mentorship is the idea that someone will exhibit qualities that you recognize you don't haven't fully realized in yourself and that you can sort of model them and realize them because latently you have

those qualities oh like kevin hart we were talking about how adorable i find his positivity it made me think it's so real it's unbelievable on a practical level the way he's building his stand up that guy's [ __ ] diligent and the amount when he talked through his when he talked through his work schedule you quite you fetishize hard-working men i think i've heard you talk about dwayne johnson and kevin hart yeah like like you like the idea of men i'm up at those people too i'm in the cryo chamber i don't do that though i sleep in i can't tell you what you can do a lot of things that they don't do like i but

i also you know unlike uh the rock at least i do stand up i mean kevin does stand up too obviously i don't know if he does it as much or as often as i do but because i do the clubs i have a philosophy about what's required to develop great stand-up that you have to do a lot of sets you have to do a lot of numbers a lot of different places different environments and i found that out the hard way through my best performances and my less good performances like what was missing and what did i gain you like this i think is a sort of an interesting debate

you know i don't know if it's in stand-up world at large but certainly thing i've thought about a lot is like that as soon as i was able to have an audience that would come and see me i was like i'm out thank you god you know i'm not putting myself through that [ __ ] ever again doug stanhope feels the same way by the way dad he's one of the best yeah he's amazing he's absolutely fantastic i completely agree and like because i thought like because what i feel like is that the comedy club environment warps your material because you've got a appeal to them and i think you ain't the [ __ ] arbiters of truth you've drunk crazy 2am [ __ ]

so i get like i perform oh what i'll do is like and what i'm doing say at the moment is i'll book the ucb like or like places 100 200 or go largo or put on events and i'm doing events while i'm in l.a because i think oh these people come and they love me and they bring me beads here's some vegan cookies you gotta come to the comedy store man go on after joey diaz because i feel like i like a nurturing environment i mean because i've done that i've done those [ __ ] clubs and like you know and even comedy store and late at night comedy store in l.a you know as well as london and i feel like oh jesus thank

god and after so like i'm interested to you that's part of that what i think some people could reductively refer to as mcchismo in you like that you go no i'm going in there well you know what it is it's that guy that mounted you and went for the armbar and you escaped right it's worth it because it was hard you like you realize if a child got on top of you and went for an arm bar and you escaped you'd feel nothing so when you're at largo you're you're performing for children you're doing child stand up it's like you're wrestling with a hundred pound women who just started yesterday it's like the make-a-wish foundation go on

russell then tell us your stories well if you've noticed amazing you're wonderful thank you thank you children but but like look the counter argument to that is that therefore i'm in an environment that is sympathetic and it is my audience and i'm not biasing i what you know the idea of overcoming a greater obstacle i completely appreciate what you're saying but say you believe in the purity of stand up as being some real expression of yourself as in the arrow hitting the bull's eye i feel like i have a vision of what i'm trying to achieve and increasingly it's becoming about i want my stand up i want to hang

on you know like as i've always done stories where i feel embarrassed and humiliated but i want to hang off it ruminations on what i believe to be the nature of truth and i want people to come out of those things feeling loved validated accepted and that they're good enough and that they can explore themselves you know that's more of a one-man show in a sense it's that but i don't want to like sacrifice the last you know i mean i love the last the last what is where we're at you know that's what you don't have to sacrifice in a one-man show i mean you can certainly do a one-man show that would be really funny but say you start going into yeah

that's what i'm doing and i'm like i'm trying to build things like around 12 steps and trying to like doing things that people have some take away value from now like you know like trying to develop that after joey diaz in the store that's not going to happen there's going to be some resistance you are you aware of hannah gatsby and the controversy what do you think about it i haven't seen it yeah i'm going to see it but because what the end of comedy and all that kind of thing it's silly it's no end of comedy but she what she's doing people like and there's nothing i don't know you call it whatever you

want sometimes it's funny i mean maybe it's stand-up comedy towards the end it like becomes sort of quite aggressive towards the audience yeah it became like a ted talk almost i guess apparently i'm interested oh you know that's you know yeah there's enough room for everyone to experience to do whatever they're doing but like see at the beginning of my uh let's call it career like i used to not prepare at all i was still drinking the union i'd go up on stage i'd chop [ __ ] up i'd get into confrontation like i'm when i say chop chop i'd take up animals [ __ ] animal parts i'd go from butchers like like a skull with all meat and stuff and sinew

on it chop it up friend they'll just release locusts get into confrontations and like so yeah exactly the reaction you're having is the reaction they were having like the same as the front row i had like fights i've got scars on my body from bad stand up gigs from a time where i go into a confrontation like i was making a point about pedophilia saying oh we're all one cultural mind so when a particular pedophile is transgressed against a child we're all responsible people like what the [ __ ] and i i'm like i got the [ __ ] kicked out with that time you know i've still got the scar on my leg that happened to edinburgh in

scotland people didn't take it well like so but what i was trying to do was like create i didn't have the skills the chops the experience the jokes so i was so under equipped but like what i was trying to do was create environments that felt you know i'm much better at doing that now i can create that kind of an uncertainty in a room a kind of a sense of chaos and what's happening and then bring it back i hope to a humorous conclusion where people feel safe and amused and all of that kind of stuff now i think it's you you can't like because i did try and do that in comedy clubs and yeah it was confrontational it's not what people want so don't you think that

by prepping your stand up in those uh environments that it biases you towards a type of stand-up comedy in is limited no because you can do that other stuff too you could always perform to your crowd and you could always expand on things to your crowd but to really put it together without any fluff without any nonsense without being self-indulgent with respecting the attention span of the audience that may or may not even be there to see you most likely is not if you go to a comedy club and there's a large you know if you go to the comedy store any night of the week there's 15 plus people on the marquee or on the the list and the show

starts at 8 p.m or 9 p.m depending on the night and it goes to 2 o'clock in the morning and you know you catch waves in there and there's different types of comedy and in that you're gonna deal with sometimes tired audiences sometimes enthusiastic people it's all different it varies widely and i think that um in doing that you cut all the nonsense out of your act and you you develop economy of words you understand how to captivate people's attention and keep them engaged and to respect their time respect their point of view respect that these people have an attention span they want to be engaged in in the best

possible way that you can do it and sometimes you develop that through these really difficult sets or you know distracted people and drunks and all that stuff you can develop that those qualities you're always going to have your crowd and your crowd i mean if you have this this vision of how you want to put things together you can put that kind of thing together at a comedy club you're doing it in these 15-minute chunks you just have to figure out a way to grab them yes and make them really interested in what you have to say you're right because there's a obviously in like the comedy store between the hours you just

just described there's a contract we're here not really at cu we're here to laugh every 15 seconds and like you know comics like you know like robin williams or chappelle's the the you know the all-time greats they when they go in and accept those conditions and you know you've seen stuff i'm sure like of robin williams he's just like walking around in the crowd in that very room it's like he's like he's doing the thing i'm talking about and he's doing it there yeah that's when you think yeah if like i suppose i do get that that you're road testing it to a it's durability to an incredible degree if you can pull it off there yeah well think about every time

you're saying something when you you have a subject like say if you want to do uh you want to talk about the mentors that you have in life there's it's an open-ended approach you have no idea what the correct way to say something is you try it you you write it out you say this seems feasible let me try it this way and oftentimes people never correct it or they never they never adjust it they never go back and improve it they just say it in a certain way and figure out how to do it when you're doing it in front of a crowd you're developing these things while also feeling the way people are reacting to them and feeling their

attention span and it makes you with proper reflection and truly objective listening to your material it makes you change and shift and adjust things you know hopefully in a positive way get in and the more you do it the more you get a sense of maybe this is clunky here and maybe i figure out a better way to say it and i agree but the counter argument could be that it could bias you to a sort of a lowest common denominator area say with that bit where you talk about the sun and you know it's you know it you need it it's trying to kill you it gives you cancer you know like something like what was the journey of that bit of

stand-up is this like like for me it's like oh i think before i try and make sure there's a tag so i know where i'm going when i'm out there and then it's a comparable process to yours you're trying your best to get rid of fluff or whatever yeah so can you recall like what it's like you know you night after night going in with new bits of material packaged within things that you're a little more confident in yeah and i put that bit on a special i can do it better now i know a better way to do it and that's part of the problem with doing bits it's like sometimes you release them on a special you have a better version of it now

but my point of that was to a perspective enhancer to let people know that bit was about like understand what's happening here you are literally floating in infinity and it's almost never discussed you're hurling through forever there's a fireball in the sky it's a million times bigger than earth if you stare at it you'll go blind it's trying to give you cancer and if it's not there you get sad yeah you live in a dream like this is madness your life is madness it's beautiful yeah it is but i wanted there's something about that particular way of exp see because i figured out a way to express it

in short doses and short bursts if you know if you stare at it it'll go blind it's trying to give you cancer and if it's not there you get sad so in that short burst like it's you know like wow yeah that is all those things are true like this is crazy there really is a fireball floating in the sky we're just used to it we live because of a floating million times bigger than the earth fireball and i when you say if you could say something like that and make someone laugh you can actually change the way they look at things you can actually affect at least the way they look at things if you just say something

sometimes it's profound sometimes it registers but if you could say something and it forces someone to laugh even if they disagree with you if they're laughing like i don't even [ __ ] agree with this but holy [ __ ] this is funny you put that thought deep into someone's head and you allow them to think about your thought process and and how your creative process and what you're doing to sort of bring these things out yes i like the way you just describe the architecture of that you've got to basically have these are some facts about the sun irrefutable yeah now here is how that affects the way we look at the world and exposes to us that

we're just ignorant we're not awake to reality we can't hold reality in our minds because it's too vast to handle i like it and i agree with you that you know that with laughter comes access to kind of deeper truths and i've heard some therapists in fact say that uh like the laughter is to shame what grief is to sadness that laughter is helping to expel shame and to process shame there's something very important about people coming together and laughing together i i like to exist comedically in a world where it's like starts from a deeply personal perspective and admissions and

acknowledgments of humiliation and shame and vulnerability and travels out to the universal and hopefully archetypal that you can sort of travel between those points with the comedian nothing we both admire bill hicks what i think is fascinating is because like you know like if you've loved bill hicks for a long while then you discover man that guy works material a lot you know like you go i watch this interview with him on the australian tv he's doing like a bit that i've seen him do you know in multiple incarnations but i have also seen him do interviews where he's spontaneously talking about gigs terrible gigs that

have gone badly and he is hilarious but it's very interesting to me and perhaps it's because of that background and that practice of doing clubs that hicks is very much a comedian that's no i'm drilling this [ __ ] thing and i'm staying with it no he was a writer i mean he he did ad-lib and he did he was capable of going on these rants spontaneous rants but he was a writer you know he wrote these things out and he was aiming to have an impact with his commentary i mean that was what was was he was doing he was not just trying to make you laugh he was aiming to enhance your your perspective on whatever he was talking

about yeah and as a it was seems very disciplined as a practitioner of it whereas like say a chappelle it feels like he's just going like an hour well you know he's got a very unique process chappelle does and he can turn over an hour like no one have ever seen before and i was talking to donnell wrongs about it recently who you know was on this propel show with him he's like we both agreed like he's the best ever at turning over a new hour he can have a new he could release a netflix special and then have a new hour within a couple of weeks it doesn't even make sense i don't i

don't understand how he's doing it he must just flood in he's just he's in a great space you know he's in a great mindset to do comedy you know if if you pay attention to how you know when when people study like if you read outliers and you read how people when people study why people are great at what they do what makes them exceptional there's always a variety of factors and whatever the factors are with dave he's got this easy going personality this like very carefully carefree way of looking at things he's also gone through a lot of [ __ ] in his career with you know the leaving the chappelle show and you know abandoning 50 million dollars and going

to africa and really understanding what his real motivation were he was caught up in that world where they were trying to change him and commercialize his television show and he handled it as good as anybody that's ever handled it yeah he he handled fame and temptation i think better than anyone i've ever heard of he just said [ __ ] you and he just went away he went away and then didn't do gigs for years people understand he would show up and do stand-up places but he wouldn't book anything so like he wasn't getting paid he was just he did stand up dave chappelle did stand up in the park in seattle he

brought like a little amplifier and a microphone set up and just started doing stand up and people just gathered round and he did this just to sort of get him back in touch with his roots because he used to do a lot of street performing in new york and i saw him do street performing in montreal we did a club and then we came out of the club and dave i think dave was like 18 or 19 at a time just started doing stand up on the street and put his hat out and people would put money in his hat i mean he was uh constantly sharpening that sword and he stopped doing stand up for a long time in terms of like booking gigs and

then after a while i said [ __ ] it i'm gonna come back again and then he started doing these gigantic gigs and then of course he did his two recent uh netflix specials were amongst his best work ever and you know and now he's he's working all the time he's constantly popping into the comedy store and the comedy seller and all these different clubs all across the country and constantly doing stand-up and no social media just not not involved in any of that stuff doesn't do anything just just performs just does this stuff yeah that's interesting when it's like i i feel that some people have like found their essence and found their path and

live it and like they you know that like they're a yogi or a priest or something that's right he's just got a devotional this is who i am i'm not doing anything that's not that and it yeah that's exhibited even in earlier stuff prior to the cri that you know what you just you know the crisis of the 50 million walk away thing like by then if he was at 18 doing them clubs he was hardened like what that what seemed so loose on stage was something that had been refined as a person who's comfortable yeah he was always good he was good when i first met him when he was like 18. i think he was 18 i was 21 so it was somewhere in that

range maybe i was a little older maybe he was uh maybe he was like how old's dave 46 47 i think he's five years younger than me is that correct 46 or 47 45 okay so he's more six years six years younger than me so you know i was probably 25 and he was probably 18 ish 25 26 18 17 but he was um he was so like calm and like he was very was you were attracted to listening to him it was like like look at this guy like this guy's like so comfortable in his own skin and so friendly and easy going and hilarious but

who he was then and then who he became is all the work that he put in you know it's like he had this base of this really you know this curious young very wise person who saw things that other people didn't see in the world and then he just kept going and just kept going and then of course the chappelle show which is in my opinion the greatest sketch comedy show of all time even though it was only two seasons it's the best ever and then after that i mean he's basically just on stand-up and done it completely outside of this system he's done up some parts and movies and [ __ ] like that but for the most part what

he's doing is just stand up completely outside of the hollywood system completely free just goes up you know just talks some [ __ ] has a couple of drinks laughs and and and it's incredibly compelling he's found his groove you know and that's it's a beautiful thing to watch as a fellow stand-up comedy practitioner when someone achieves this mastery level like you know we were talking about like this hicks and gracie of stand-up comedy level because that's where he's at right now yeah i agree with you become who you are yeah yeah

he's become himself and he doesn't have things that are getting in the way of that you know that's what's really interesting like you don't see him he's like he's not on social media he's not on anything twitter or facebook he's not any of that [ __ ] he doesn't pay attention to any of it he's just just being a person just being a person and doing stand-up you know it's uh he doesn't have to which is unique too you know he doesn't have to promote things they just sell out yeah what an amazing example what an amazing example i've got to promote some things oh what do you got the book mentors

[Laughter] i've really learned some powerful lessons there from the story of uh the apotheosis of comedy that dave chappelle's achieved here's these obligations now i'm i'm booked here to promote luminary my podcast has gone behind her a paywall on a platform called luminary aiming to be the netflix of podcasts meaning like that you know your model will i imagine triumph further so like from like this week my podcast will be on luminary as part of their premium content it's an app through which you'll get all podcasts but my podcast is like you've got

yeah i know that was in the process of being created are you happy with that so far because it's not launched i don't know right you know you know like that you're going to leave listeners behind because it's gone behind a paywall but i spoke to sort of like sam harris about like sam harris actually told me about it me too yeah right right and i spoke to like and what i recognized is because like the advertising model works obviously in your case and i thought wow like there it was like a good deal it was a good deal i meant well i can carry on doing podcasts for two three years that's you

know what this you know this and it's supporting a lot of other content and essentially not yielding any creative control if people just if people subscribe they get the premium content my stuff how much it was like only like five bucks a month like that yeah and you get like trevor noel and mine how many different podcasts i don't know i think like when they're premium content there's like 40 or 50 premium podcast like you know pieces of content so like so for me i thought like you know it felt like otherwise podcasts wouldn't be something that i could continue to do forever i would every you know

because i do films or tv shows or stand up or whatever like a different like you know for me it wasn't a viable thing to pay for you know to pay for people to run it to pay for guests to even get to me and all that kind of stuff you know no no do you do ads on your podcast within i never did before but now after this right it's an ad free model like that's there's a benefit to that for sure you know and a lot of people choose to go ad free and then they use patreon or something like that for listener supported stuff sam harris was doing that for a long time but then he they had an issue with

patreon about certain censorship of certain individuals and certain ideological perspectives where they were you know leaning towards left-wing things and you know being being restrictive towards right-wing things and then you know the policing the way people behave outside of patreon and some people found that objectivable so he left and some other people left like jordan peterson left and ah i've never entered into patreon into those waters but uh i know bird does it i think burr has like one a week that he does doesn't happen

really yeah he's astonishing he's one of the best yeah so like uh but like i feel like uh yeah i feel like it's an all right thing to do but even in um like just with using things like youtube and social media and you know like spotify itunes or whatever like you know as we have seen there's a point where there is sort of censorship is a possibility like as you discussed on the jack like that run of episodes mate as i said to you by text between the jack dorsey the reaction to that your response to the reaction through alex jones and all that's important i thought that was a spate of podcast that's like this is where this medium can be the

alex jones podcast i thought was the godfather of podcasts have you seen the yeah we have a guy who's hilarious his name is paulie tune and paulie tune makes uh animated clips for us with the podcast and he's fantastic and he did one of the alex jones eddie bravo uh incident the challenge yeah yeah well they were there no not when he's asking him to choke him here i went the flat earth no this one it's so ridiculous here we'll play it for you oh here what's going on what's the matter my audio cut off yourself oh okay

back it up for the beginning there it was an exception it even looks like here we go the guy does awesome artwork too so we're gonna get to this next and i i respect you hey i want you guys to yell at each other for three minutes while i go pee i gotta pee too okay we'll do it in chefs we'll do a [ __ ] i'll go first okay anyways you are someone that i could talk to about the flat earth conspiracy you don't believe in flat earth but you can kind of understand where i'm coming from what if i finance a research ship and

make a documentary i can't go away for three months i will pay what how much money can you raise we're gonna need uh are you guys going to the school or in orbit okay you raise the money for a trip now let's go raise the money ice caps cats that are knocking i'm gonna film the drop off with my iphone yes yes go pee man go pee don't you have to go we're gonna send someone else the governor listen to me you really think there's people out there campaigning for late-term

abortions you think that shit's real yeah so you're telling me it isn't real when they had a [ __ ] vote and the goddamn [ __ ] [ __ ] jesus that's a conspiracy theory you think you're [ __ ] tough you're about to get it oh [ __ ] they're killing already born babies stop [ __ ] lying god [ __ ] damn i'm getting pissed now don't get pissed i is so crazy that i always thought i was so tough i can't believe he doesn't have to pee anymore i gotta piss a little bit the point is the point is the point is is that why are we debating

whether the earth is flat dude they're keeping they have human animal hybrids yeah that's good stuff that's what i mean i feel like that is the pinnacle of where this medium can take us yeah watching like that's like he was in an extreme state what about when he could go by be comfortable i'll keep like i go and run so i'd listen to this [ __ ] hell man where else are you going to get this content where is that well there's no one would ever agree to it anywhere else that's the thing you'd never get a group of people whose jobs depended upon keeping the show on the air whether they're producers or executives they would never agree to

that they'd be like you can't have that crazy [ __ ] on you can't have this on you can't have eddie bravo on all the time he thinks the world is flat stop this because you're traveling between such diverse and unusual ideas and and sort of the thing with alex jones as well is that he's like he demonstrates to a point that there's veracity in what he's saying some things yeah he's right about a lot of things you know when he was talking about animal human hybrids we started pulling up these studies or they actually have done studies where they've tried to create

animal human hybrids non-viable animal human embryos they're trying to grow human organs in different animals and there's all sorts of weird scientific [ __ ] that we're doing imagine what they're doing in china behind walls look at this china's latest cloned monkey experiment is an ethical mess they use crispr to add human genes into monkey jeans and there's like five monkeys this happened back in january and i don't know this is a [ __ ] horror movie this is a harmony this is how the horror movie begins why because you think that once if that's what's being revealed the truth is darker yes for sure for sure they're trying to

create super soldiers someone is trying to create some super soldier some half champ half human super intelligent murderous thing that's powered by remote control that is not a good objective no i don't see a good outcome for this super intelligent murderous remote control but what if you could send those super intelligent murderous champs to go kill isis now now we've got a reason to start designing get him out there now we need we look we've got a nice contract with this defense contractor and they're gonna that's how we lubricate the passage to the murderous monkeys is isis that's the

function of isis in their cultural conversation is to justify the monkey soldiers do you know what one scared me more than anyone that i've ever read i read about this thing that um darpa was putting together it's a a robot called the eater robot eatr robot it's a robot that fuels itself on biological matter so it essentially could eat bodies so you've got a murderous robot that eats people there it's like there's fuel worst kind of things that human beings could achieve it's like people are sat around trying to yeah come up with them

well they're you know they they're responsible for a lot of really crazy innovation in terms of like military stuff you know but boston dynamics you know they're the ones that make those crazy robots and they work with darpa and those are the ones that make those robots that you can't kick over right you know i mean that's what you need one of those that eats people and you send them to the battlefield kick it over no that's the first thing we established is you can't kick it over i just think that's that's the big fear is that future warfare will be our robots versus their robots you know if we're starting to bring about the

worst aspects or the worst things that a human being can conceive of let's channel them through into reality yeah it does make you feel that the apocalypse is real i thought it was bad enough when in the malaise of my younger days i s like uh for oh wow imagine if there was a cleaning service where the person would come around and clean dressed scantily they do that they do that whatever devious [ __ ] you can dream up someone's trying to turn a buck off it and they've taken it to the extent of the non-kick-over robot flesh eating robots yeah yeah what is this a new one it's a new video today oh god watch this this is so scary this

is boston dynamics there's something very eerie about that type of motion you know like the way that the movement of a snake is deeply coded to be unpleasant when you see it the same way you think that movement you think that ain't good but the truck it's towing wow oh my god they're pulling a truck and it's tiny little tootsies those they're that strong they could pull a truck little robots that's a giant ass truck i mean it is also just a husky sled made out of expensive robots and a truck they've spent a lot of time in endeavour to go backwards i i guess kinda but to an

issue santa claus they're showing how strong these things are i don't like i don't like their gate joe that's an unpleasant gate yeah you should be on you should be uncomfortable with it yeah that's i'm not easy at ease with that but it's not humorous it's not animal and there's no compassion in it this is it's it's feelingless but that's what you've got to worry about ever see that episode of black mirror or the lady gets chased down by the drones i've not seen that why are they one where they're bees no there's a woman who's being haunted she's being hunted

uh by a robot and it's terrifying because of its remorseless lack of humanity and empathy looks just like that looks just like those things those are real charlie brooker he's yeah he's packed into it that man's got good imagination he's amazing he's amazing that show is fantastic but these things look what we have to worry about is once artificial intelligence becomes sentient and you can somehow another attach it to these objects that move and they they run on solar power or they have you know nuclear fuel cells or some crazy [ __ ] that allows them to exist for a long period of time

you don't have to worry about them contaminating environments if you plan on killing everybody in the environment oh man and also there's no means of regulation is there because this because this is the apex of human endeavor they're in what what can govern that what can regulate it and like you say there'll be a chinese equivalent for any of this stuff there's nothing that's above it going is this a good idea should we pull back what it is he just pulled up a thing that said they're making that now yeah that one i just showed you they're good 100 different models of it are going to

be available starting production this summer doesn't say how much that they're going to wow but available for people to buy well it says 100 different models it says produce 100 models that probably means it'll produce 100 of them like 100 different companies are going to want them but i bet it's more than that yeah depending on how much they cost it doesn't say how much it's going to cost they're going to announce that later but they showed like a robot arm coming oh that looks so creepy look at that thing imagine we have one of those things in the room filming we should get one no no that

takes over one day we come here it's got red eyes and it's like [ __ ] you [ __ ] you what do you feel like we're the first ones to help it or something trying to befriend it to us like alexa that's how it begins isn't it yeah there's something arachnoid and eerie about that it's almost like you know see if this tunes into the dmt component of what we've been talking about it's almost as if we've already experienced this reality we've already been through the version where those evil insectoid robots take over so when we see it on the screen we think oh no we're doing that thing

we're doing that thing where we create those things that bring about our destruction and i believe it's because we've become biased to commerce and a particular type of progress but one narrative has succeeded because we necessarily had to throw off religion but you know at the dawn of the secular age because religion was becoming systems of bias and systems of oppression and what and systems of uh what do i want to say elevating certain types of power and supporting at least let's go hang on a minute this religion a lot of it seems like [ __ ] what we've done is we've abandoned the sacred and i think if you abandon the sacred

meaning there is more to life than what we can understand i listened to the brian cox episode and i've spoke to brian cox the british physicist astrophysicist on my show as well and when he talks about like he said that you know we know that there's not some additional component to a human being because we can break down everything that happens when you move an arm you know whatever and i feel like we only have limited instruments we only have limited instruments there's certain frequencies that we simply cannot read what else is going on when people are having these transcendent psychedelic experiences we're accessing elements of

consciousness energies and frequencies that we're not able to access while we're in this state and everything we're achieving and everything we're building we're building on this platform and the bias of this platform is towards progress and materialism and i think the result is fleshy in robots and those evil monkey warrior soldiers and we might i want to calm down have a little talk about what it is we're trying to design yeah i don't know if i agree with brian on that particular point that we think we know everything about where consciousness emanates i don't think that's necessary

but i like the fact that he thinks that way because he's such a rigid hardliner for science and yeah the guy works at cern i mean he's a brilliant brilliant man so of course he thinks that way i also don't think he's ever had a dmt experience that's right i wonder that yeah some people i think give them a quick dose you know because i as well i respect brian and it's further to my point similar to the hunting argument i can but you know i happen to believe in god but like i when i talk to brian cox i got to the point where i'm saying all right even though i believe in god and you are an uh an atheist although he said i don't call

myself an atheist well i felt like we both got to the point where we said compassion kindness and love are the most important thing so in this way who cares so when you say it there when you say you believe in god do you believe in the traditional god of christianity do you believe in god as a concept you have your own definition for it that i believe that that state of oneness and transcendence that you're talking about when you through your dmt experiences that says you know love and kindness and love and awareness i believe that is the most real thing i think that preceded all matter and i think that we that we can interact with

it so i don't believe that god in a sort of in just a guy away that the whole world is like an interactive bio biological living breathing goddess i believe that we i believe yes that and that we can commune with it and i and furthermore the relevance of it for me is that it it suggests to me that we should be acting kindly and lovingly and when we're thinking about how do we organize our systems that our awareness of that energy accessible to all of us should be paramount in our understanding of how we organize so like what i think is like that we should look at you know like we've been through as human beings in so many advents that agriculture

technology industry thinking that we were the you know the sun went round there thinking that the earth was flat with all due respect to eddie bravo and like you know and we and and before each of these realizations and each of these changes we always think we're at the summit we never know what's going to be the thing that's going to change my suspicion is that what's going to change is that the way we relate to consciousness and the way we see ourselves as individuals that we start to have an understanding that what that that becomes a priority that thing you described of like when i have come back from dmt trips i recognize this is just

an illusion and it's not real i think that will start like i believe that we need to prioritize that and progressing along that line what are the implications of this not being the most real frequency there is how do we organize society on that basis how does that affect how we relate to one another what kind of how should we be governing how how does that affect justice that that should be in the mix instead of how many [ __ ] terrifying arachnoid weird gate robot [ __ ] can we you know like that's the way we're going the progressive technological route because it's created medicine because it's saved so many lives because it's

given us wonderful technology the spirit of entrepreneurial ship but all of that energy it all gets pushed in one direction yeah it all goes that way and i feel that we need to invite that back the sacred and the divine need to be back in the conversation well there's certainly going to be pros and cons with everything you know there's definitely pros and cons with the creation of technology i think of this i think of human beings as if you go back to single-celled organisms they have very little awareness of their environment and then

as it became primitive bugs you know as as things evolved they developed more awareness but even us in comparison to certain animals certain animals have heightened senses of smell and survival instincts but they're also colorblind you know and they they don't see things they see edge detection like that's one of the things about deer they see movement so like if you wear camouflage and you know your your pattern is broken up with a grid and then you stay put they don't see you yeah they just it doesn't meet doesn't register to them they see movement so we have a far more complex system of recognition than they do in

terms of like visually the way we see things and i think that whatever skills or whatever senses that we've evolved i don't think that's it i don't think that we've reached the pinnacle of it and i think that as beings become more and more evolved they'll probably gain more and more senses and that could be directly related to technology it's totally possible that what's going on with technologies that we're also developing through external means a way for us to see the world a way for us to view like what they've done with the large hadron colliders like the best

example of it right what they do with the hubble space telescope and other telescopes you're using technology to gain awareness and to see more things and that this is the good side of technologies that it's allowing us to have a far greater understanding of all the variables that surround us that we might not be able to detect with our senses yes that this is a part of who we are and then i think when you're talking about things like psychedelic experiences that's probably another realm of understanding that we haven't really achieved yet because we're we're still evolving as a as a species as a thing

what i think is interesting is that the continual bias along that technological path is towards profit you know when we see those machines the end point is always how do we make how do we maximize profit there is no like the influence of how do we do what's right that's like a sort of a a person like a sort of a general ethical uh what i want to say sort of code is not being introduced there is no regulation like you know like ultimately you know ultimately people will create the warrior monkeys or the most profitable machines people because the the counter argument isn't being made no one is like what i'm saying no one's

making it there's just there's no union of uh you know there's no sort of clear opinion of hang on a minute where could we be going no there is no body or ideology that's able to oppose the relentless march of capitalism i'm not sort of like a flat out or capitalism is bad here i am promoting a book using an iphone or you know i mean i'm we're all swimming in it right but what i'm saying is that if we acknowledge there are transcendent realms there there is information date and data that exists beyond what we're able to receive with our senses how are we going to incorporate that in the way

we organize because otherwise the sort of the magnetism the pull the g-force of what's most profitable what's going to continue to suit the uh requirements of the powerful that will always the bias will always fall in that direction and it seems like where that's heading is certain kinds of ecological disaster certain kinds of economic inequality certain kinds of conflict you know and like when one of the simple uh experiments that i apply is you know if we you know if people say oh what's wrong with the world world so [ __ ] all this polarity i sometimes think well who is benefiting from how it is now are there is anyone benefiting are there any

groups institutions or individuals for whom this current state is beneficial and if the answer to that question is yes then look at who those institutions are and they are most likely to a degree involved in establishing and maintaining these systems and there are you know institutions and individuals and organizations that this works just fine for but are they just capitalizing on it or are they organizing it and is a normal part of the way human beings operate with this constant desire for innovation constant desire for improvement we always want to push further no no one's comfortable where they are they will always want to be in

a better place and this is almost like it's built into capitalism right i agree that this materialism which is built into capitalism also is what fuels innovation because you want the newest iphone so they have to design it and build it and make it and when new things come out like this new robot that apparently you're going to 100 models whatever that means what that is is this is they're going to sell it so there's like it's fueling innovation someone else will come along and compete with boston dynamics and then there will be there would be innovation wars if these innovation wars weren't

in place right now our phones would look nothing like the iphone x it just wouldn't it wouldn't look like the sx it would look like who knows what it would look like but there would be no no incentive for them to compete against all these samsung devices and huawei devices and all that stuff is fueling this innovation but it's all being fueled by capitalism you're quite right that that the innovation is one of the benefits of the maintaining this system but it seems to me that we are excluding other factors like that that recur throughout human cultures we all have an idea of fairness

of justice and yeah i don't want some clunky weird sort of eastern block phone made out of grey plastic you know only one button on it like but like we have to i suppose examine as a society and as individuals what is important to us now where i think you know we've talked touched several times upon you know the fact that as an individual you're more likely to bias yourself towards negative information online you know like we do have a degree of individual power and individual responsibility and i feel like if enough people awaken to the possibility of different narratives that the the capitalist idea of innovation and

success and progress that all of these words can be examined what do you mean progress that assumes a teleology a purpose a destination if all time is happening at once if space is infinite like you know that bit of yours of like you know to try and fathom for a moment the limitlessness that we're existing within then all these things are constructs this is a construct and it is good to have technology but it's possible to like at points times of crisis such as what it feels like we're at now and although that people have said well we always feel that every generation thinks that they're the one because they know their own impending

death is coming and they narrativize that into something social and global well regardless there's got to be a time where we start to introduce different ideas into our systems it seems like there's room for that now because we do live in a tow a truly global culture that there is the possibility for monoliths to introduce new innovation and there is nothing that can oppose it or regulate it we're starting to see this kind of breakdown so i'm interested in how we can individually prepare ourselves to organize society differently to be able to overcome pretty superficial differences like oh

you go honey and i don't go hunting we i think we gives a [ __ ] let's start talking about how we can organize the size where people who go on and don't go hunting can live peacefully in different ways not entirely governed by a small cabal you know and i'm sure power is more complex than that that seem to be hugely biasing the direction of this so-called progress i think you answered your own previous questions when you're talking about whether or not you can be spiritual and funny and like what are you doing can you carve that path out for yourself that what you're doing there by explaining that would influence people would give people a perspective

that allows them to say yeah like why are we doing this and what is the purpose of this and if enough people hear those words and have that perspective introduced to them it'll change the way they interact with the world and that changes the world it really does and that's one of the more powerful things about discussions when someone like you says something like that and it resonates with people and they start thinking like why am i living like this like what if i only have if i really do only have 50 years to live why am i living these 50 years in some really unproductive [ __ ] way that's

not satisfying at all because i just want a bigger house like what is it do i want a faster car do i want to expensive piece of jewelry like what is what is the purpose of this path that i'm on now versus a path that i could be on and what is the real conflict that we all experience between each other is it how much of it is due to a lack of communication how much of it is due to a lack of real listening and understanding one of the things i've said about like comments and podcasts and stuff like that i think one of the reasons why a lot of people get mad and i've tried to think this through like why some people some of the response is so negative the

things that don't that seem innocuous on the outside i think it's because it's frustrating when you don't have a say yeah like if two people see you and i are talking about something there's probably some guy right now going well just [ __ ] stop with all your spiritual [ __ ] here's what you do you wake up when your [ __ ] alarm clock goes off you never hit snooze you get out the door you put your hours in eventually you get better you take care of your family you act like a [ __ ] man and there's probably people like that that are they're upset they feel like we're pontificating too much and this is all just you know

just mental masturbation you're right in some ways it is but that's part of how you dissolve these things and think these things through i believe they deserve their say as well and that's one of the things that you know of being a person that goes to 12-step support groups is you recognize that everyone's individual experience is valuable yes but it's not like that and i've got over the idea that you know that there's some external thing can be imposed and like you know whilst there are like many people that are you know we could say not using their 50 years to maximum

effect because they are you know pursuing odd material goals there are you know many many more people that are have never been introduced to the idea of freedom because from the moment they're born they're economically tyrannized and told that you're only if you are not economically valuable to this system you are not valuable at all and that isn't that's only an idea but you know if you don't you know if you can't become a lawyer or you know a comedian or whatever [ __ ] you well so many of us are trapped in the expectations and values of our parents too that's a real problem with people don't let their children become an

individual you know they force their children to follow their own rigid ideology and they shame them when they don't i agree with that but do you not imagine that a fair degree of that stuff is unconscious probably unconsciously imposing things on our kids 100 but not with guilt and i mean if your kid comes to you and say daddy no i know you wanted me to be a doctor but [ __ ] it i want to play bongos i just want to be the best bongo player of all time i bet you'd probably be like hey learn the [ __ ] bongos give me a hug yeah go get those bongos get out there yeah become the best damn goer you can

there are even mediocre sure but there are fathers out there be like the [ __ ] you are you're going to be a goddamn doctor stop being a [ __ ] and you're going to go back to medical school and you're going to pick up your studies we're going to get you a tutor and you're going to perform because we're a wilson you're a wilson and our this wilson family has been physicians since 18 20. your grandfather i'm immoral he made people bite down on a leather strap before amnesia and he sawed off legs and he kept those people alive you want to play bongos you little [ __ ] yeah yeah people get mad but my bias is towards my kid like uh like sort of

like when we was back in england like i was aware of like grandparents or whatever reacting to spiders and stuff going oh spiders are scary don't [ __ ] teach them that spiders are scary i don't want her to think of things as scary tell her like these spiders are cool they're all right there's something you know like so yeah and you're aware of familial influence like that they wanted the hair to be a certain way they wanted to wear certain things they wanted to like you know part of the veganism is like if you make these kids vegan at least now i know wherever they go there's going to be so many restrictions

on their food i've not made the kids vegan they're good it's up to them yeah thank you where's my gold star where's my ticket parade but like uh so but like you know i but i don't know what you know we don't know our own biases we don't know what where we've been institutionalized you know because how you know the very nature of the unconscious is we are not aware of it you know so i suppose in a sense a continued open-mindedness and a willingness to change must be part of any dialogue to go into these situations you know i might not actually know what that's why i'm not when i was 20 if

you'd have said about the hunt in i'd be like oh no man like now i'm like yeah jesus there's so many ways of seeing the world there's so many ways of looking at what's natural and what's correct i'm you know what do i know i think with hunting hunting is like many things and that there's no real clean answer there's no yes or no good or bad because you could think there is but then you find circumstances like wild pigs or invasive species like i go hunting on a place called lanai it's one of the small islands of hawaii there's somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 000 people

and 20 000 deer it is so overpopulated with deer and they have to kill them they kill them every day they hire snipers they hire people to kill them people are slamming in with their cars i mean they're [ __ ] everywhere and they're access deer they're not even from there they're from uh someone brought them over from india to give to king kamehameha in like the 1800s they're animals actually that evolved to get away from tigers so there's this insanely fast beautiful deer that are everywhere they're forced to kill well the good news is the people that are low-income people of the island always

have meat there's there's meat everywhere everyone can hunt it's really easy to find them you can you could find them and if you you know if you want you can go kill them yeah i've got no moral judgment about that you know if there's rats in my house well i'm not going to put down poison i'm going to go oh but that's the thing right right you should probably feel bad about killing a rat right as a vegan i do feel bad i feel bad i feel bad about everything i'm hungry what about me yeah i i wouldn't i wouldn't swat a mosquito even even the dalai lama even the dalai lama lo i see him he went

uh like the first time a gentle brush the second time a harder one third time smack the dalai lamp like you know the dalai lama gives them free chances then you're out you might be reincarnated or something better can i go the please yeah sure go ahead man it's almost three o'clock already believe it or not quite well oh god like when standing up has made me realize the pressure my bladder was under he's such a character isn't he he's got these incredibly long rants you know but he's so um self-aware and introspective he's like always analyzing himself trying to find if he's doing right i get a kick of these celebrity dudes

doing jiu jitsu too i think it's hilarious it's awesome it's cool it's cool to hear him talk about it you could tell you know the struggles with it i just saw someone else say that just started it and i can't remember who it was someone famous yeah it might not be relevant at all but i'm trying to i think demi lovato is like a purple belt or some [ __ ] she's been into it for a long time uh russell who you know i've trained with it russell's a legit blue belt i rolled with russell and i was like wow russell really knows jiu jitsu he's actually doing the right stuff here it's hard

it's hard for someone to go from a place of where a guy like russell brand is handsome beautiful famous man who has got some strange plumber sitting on his face yanking on his arm his description of it is awesome yeah filled with bow feces and his bowels and yeah that veganism stuff's for the birds though sorry vegan people to eat eggs if you don't want to kill any animals please just find find a good farm that has pasture-raised eggs and see how much better you feel or eat

animals that are [ __ ] you should find animals that are [ __ ] in the woods only eat the [ __ ] somebody sent me this horrible video that i've seen many times before of a bear killing a deer in a backyard and a deer screaming the bears tearing apart i'm sure you've seen that before right and uh he sent it to me and he goes okay now i get it like i didn't think i thought like if a bear got a deer that it would be just oh hey this is just how nature works like no this is a horrific violent act of this animal tearing this

other animal apart now would you prefer that than a hunter because 99 times out of 100 when a hunter kills an animal it's way quicker that's the video it's horrible it's a horrible video this animal i think it's actually a black bear i think it's either a grizzly or a color phase black bear but it takes a long time too if you if you haven't seen the video it's a long one and the animal makes some horrible noises we're talking about uh russell returns we're talking about a video that i've seen before about this bear that kills this deer and this guy's yard

the guy films in the deer is making these horrible noises and uh this guy sent sent it to me and he goes now i get it because i get what the wild is actually all about because you don't really see it that much you don't really it's very rare that you actually see an animal kill an animal so we have these romantic disney find ideas of what the food chain looks like out there yeah nature's brutal i mean i don't try and impose on my dog the kind of conditions that i would hold myself to you should have an organic garden if you really want to do it right because if you're getting into large-scale agriculture you're buying

food from people that grow it they're running over [ __ ] rabbits and mice and killing things with pesticides and there's no there's no removing yourself from death but just by eating vegetables it's just you don't they have to re also they have to like when with large-scale agriculture their that ground all those animals get displaced yeah you know it [ __ ] the whole ecosystem up whatever area they're planting on and then when they roll over it with those gigantic combines and pull up that grain they're chewing up everything that's why vultures always circle where combines are as soon as they have fresh cut the vultures start showing up because they

know there's going to be something that got jacked see once you know that that monoculture is unhealthy the only resistance to altering it to having like permaculture and healthier better agricultural models is commerce and profit that's not okay no no no your communes which you could have as community gardens yes yes you could but the only re but like if you start if we start saying hey why don't we not have monoculture anymore because it's uh unfair and it's unreasonable they go we can't because uh it's profitable to have it and people won't be able to afford food but all of that is like a you know

a an interrelated system that's sort of gridlocked into protecting itself yeah you know like there's a spiritual maxim wisdom is acting on knowledge and that is not the world we live in we know things and then we just ignore it you know like as individuals or as or as you know corporations and as groups and like what i feel like i'm trying to do as an individual is holding myself to that standard like i know that's not good for me to do that anymore i'm not going to do that i'm going to like i'm going to watch myself and i'm going to watch that behavior and i'm going to try and improve you know like i don't want to go like when my

first impulse and heading down to the hibero jiu jitsu places i feel nervous i don't feel confident doing it i don't want to go or whether it's like giving up me or whatever but i'm doing these things in a sense i think these are the kind of improvements i can make now like when you we almost don't expect that of politics anymore you don't expect a sort of a political figure to say well listen monoculture's having a terrible impact they'll make some gestural thing wouldn't they they go look we're going to try and control facebook and google a little bit we're going to try and reduce emissions this amount now we'll go listen we know that's wrong we're not

going to do that anymore because there's too many powerful interests that's why i was susceptible to the vegan documentary you know of course there's the ethical reasons in my opinion for becoming vegan but because it's like the reason that these kind of foods are promoted is because these powerful groups lobby government and lobby the the group the organizations that set the standards until they shut up and comply well you could sort of say that about vegetable based foods too i mean do you think they're powerful vegan lobbyists no no no vegetables just corn just growing

corn definitely i mean that's what i agree with you first that's the same that is the same you know like you're saying that the reason that is continuing is because it's profitable and but these ideas aren't going to get explored because we're on one path one teleological journey like that's sometimes what i feel like when people talk about the threats of different cultural influence eg islam for example right but i feel like well we already live in a kind of fundamentalism that's invisible to us because it's all we know we'd live in a culture that if something isn't

profitable it will not survive and i don't think that's how human beings are set up to exist i have this rather lovely anecdote about like i was coming back from a gig and there was a woman like her car broke down the side of the road i had a driver forgive me forgive me i'm not poor anymore forgive me i had a driver and we see this woman she's about the car outside the road the cars broke down and different like it's a night time and like a few different people stop and help her the first guy is like this is in england it's like a polish immigrant guy comes and helps you know my drivers muslim geezer he's helping i'm trying to help pretty

inefficient may say because you know like if you're a famous person when you go into a situation there's sometimes you don't want to be recognized there's other times it's kind of good to be recognized when you're not recognised at all i always think oh i'm not being all recognized in this situation no one recognized me in that time so i was just a weird geezer at the side of the road trying to help someone who had a minor accident without any relevant skills then someone stopped with relevant skills he was like a paramedic he took control of the situation he was ordering people around you stand here you do this go and get that go and get my head torch

he said at one point he had a [ __ ] head torch this guy's serious and like he was like he brilliantly resolved the situation um what are you doing with the head do you mean like a light he had a head torch okay not a torch like a light yeah is he burning like what's that y doing in there that's that's queen why does color have a u in it you need that u to round off the second syllable of color you savage yank brutes with your color color no it's a diphthong color color we can't even say snooker

we say snucker we can't even pronounce a sport that we don't know yeah i mean it's a is we burn him catastrophe the way how do we burn him listen this guy had what you would evidently call a headlight but even that doesn't sound right it was a lamp a headlamp yeah like that's an odd thing to happen no no i have one well you've got a headlamp in your car yes what are you anticipating if you get stuck somewhere man if anything happens you should have a headlamp this is the kind of person that you want pulling over well listen when you go hunting one of the things

that happens is you're in the woods and when it happens when the sun goes down you can't see where the [ __ ] you're going you have to have a headlamp how every hunter has a headlamp very far i have a really good one yeah a really good one so you're lighting stuff up isn't that going to alert the well you're you don't hunt at night right you know it's illegal once the sun goes down there's no hunting you have to be able to see what you're shooting at otherwise you shoot a person so you have these [ __ ] sorts of rules lights on your head are just to help you navigate through the woods and to spot predators because of course if you're

vulnerable you know and you see giant eyes ahead that are nine feet off the ground you're like oh [ __ ] it's a bear it's a two-way street yeah hunt in it's like oh hold on the hunt has become yeah that happens i've had experiences where i've ran into predators in the wild particularly uh one time in canada i ran into a grizzly bear and uh looking in the eyes it wasn't even a big one it was like a six foot bear wasn't huge but it looks right through you it looks right through you inside when you run into an animal that's killing [ __ ] every day and it looks at you oh yeah there's like a demonic look in its eyes i've me

i've seen black bears before you don't see that look a grizzly bear which is you know more predatory they have a crazy look in their eyes it's really interesting i made eye contact with a couple of predators a shark once in a shark cage on like when i was doing that film sarah marshall that i've done years ago or winning a shark cage and right and they lower you down and you see a shake a shark come towards you it's like it's swimming through time it's like it's come from another area it looks at you like you think whoa [ __ ] you know and like and i was terrified in that cage and like like ed norton was there and with the olsen they were on that

island as well they were mates with people that were in the movie they got in the water outside of the cage other other [ __ ] man that's insane isn't it this shark was little and apparently it's not kind of sharp they eat you but even the eye contacts and it's [ __ ] teeth i don't even look at it and then another thing i looked at once i was in a tiger sanctuary in india and i like uh i didn't like the vehicle i was in oh yeah this is a i should have maybe stuck with that actually this ain't comfortable there's a better jeep over there so i got out of it to transition and my mate goes you want to get in the car now mate there's

a [ __ ] tiger over there and there was a tiger like only 10 foot away maybe i'm exaggerating hold on a 20 foot maximum like if it was near and the way that that thing look i mean because it's so beautiful as well the intensity of being looked at by that [ __ ] creature that was some powerful [ __ ] you don't want eye contact without i don't want to look at something that's got like that you can't negotiate with you can't i feel like look at me even with a jiu jitsu like i've got that little moment where i go right hey come on they sell russ yeah with a tiger negotiating he doesn't care about your mortgage yeah neither does that grizzly bear doesn't

care they look through buckets yeah they don't care it's just but that's all it's doing all day long it's a killing thing it's unbelievable because that's as true as everything we reflect on it just to ask who gives a [ __ ] about your theories don't know what that is so their idea of what the wild is is really based on two things one's their their actual love of animals they know right it's like dogs and cats so the animals that we know we we have this connection with them so we think that these are animals they're science projects man those are not animals real animals don't give a [ __ ] about you

they they're in either indifferent to you or they're scared of you or they want to eat you that's real animals the relationship that you have with a dog is like a child like my dog is more like a child to me than he is like an animal i mean he's like my little friend that doesn't get to speak he doesn't talk but you know an animal in the wild is a competing organism they're competing amongst all the various organisms in whatever ecosystem they're in and either they're at the top or they're somewhere below that and that's just how it goes and every deer is looking around because there's cats and the cats are slowly

sneaking up on them every [ __ ] day of the week and if you go in a place where there's deer you best believe there's going to be mountain lions there because that's how it operates right and when you see that in the wat it's so rare it's so rare to be around that but when you see that in the wild then you get a deeper understanding of what it means to be an animal yeah what's horrific is factory farming what's perverse and disgusting is the way animals are treated when these lives these livestock companies pump these animals in these warehouses and make them stand in their own [ __ ] all day and then abuse them and the

horrific nature in which they're raised yeah all that should be illegal ag gag laws those laws where whistleblowers get arrested those should be illegal those are immoral they're letting people know what goes into your food and those people are being punished for that all that [ __ ] is being punished because it hurts business yes well it should [ __ ] hurt business you're doing something that we all think is immoral that's how i feel about it i don't think there's anything wrong with even if they if if there should be standards in how cows are raised how chickens are raised let them live like actual cows that's beautiful and there's

a way that they can do that where people like chris pratt yeah from guardians again great guy he has he raises sheep and he eats them and he even gives them out to people he has butchers that take care of it these sheep are treated like like they're loved they're not scared of people and then literally they get walked into this room they have no idea what's going to happen a bolt gets put on the top of their head bang and the lights go out now you could say that should never happen and those sheep should just live forever okay you could i could understand that argument or you could say boy if you're going to eat meat and you're

going to eat the meat of an animal that you know how it lived and there was no horrific moments in its life it's just one day the lights went out that seems like the best most ethical way to do it maybe even perhaps more ethical than hunting yes because when i'm hunting an animal um it's you know it's out there in this this crazy state where it's always looking to get eaten these sheep have no idea they can be eaten they think that everybody's their buddy and then one day they die yeah man i i agree with that you know like yeah it's difficult to bring ethics

to that that's clearly in my view a matter of opinion some people think that's okay but some people say that they could turn it around on me and say you could do that same like thought experience with people like why don't you just eat people well like hey the person led a perfect life you put a bolt in the top of their head and bang shut the lights out and then they turn into barbecue look yeah that's a very pronounced and vivid way but i would say that in a sense we're like we're being commodified imprisoned enclosed like the very fact that a law has been made to prevent people regulating or revealing the truth around that revealing it yeah

showing shows where the true bias of this system is in a way i think that one of the cultural jobs this podcast has performed and this is like whether deliberately or not is it demonstrates that the old political lines that we used to comfortably abide within are starting to sort of break down because you know like something like an obvious signifier of a particular type of person ie i go hunt in now we have to accept is coupled with your view that the agricultural industry needs to be regulated and it's disgusting now there you know there we have complete and total agreement and we both can see that the way that legislation is set up is

biased towards corporate interest commercial interests and profit you know and so for me bloody whether you know chris pratt having his own sheep i think no problem man well that's not i don't need to spend my time worrying about that i'm a little bit like alex jones like with the why are we worrying about flat earth if they've got them babies and all of that stuff it's like why don't we focus on the things that are making a genuine difference to the the way people are living lives know and it seems to me that the one of the priorities is in a new global landscape that we're living with what

are the dominant forces and what are the goals of the dominant forces and how detached are those goals from the lives of what you might say are ordinary people or the majority of people to use a less you know complex term and what's probably most horrific about reforming the system is that the people that are going to suffer the most are the people that are the poorest so like if you think of like fast food in particular right there's a lot of like really poor people that rep rely on fast food because it's very inexpensive if you go and you can get a lot of calories for a small amount of money right

but if you go from the fast food restaurant and then you go down the line to factory farming and then somehow another they eliminate factory farming and they say no no if you're going to raise animals you have to have the same sort of standards that we would expect if we knew you if we were there we want pastures we want animals living in the wild we want i mean you know fenced in but like living like an actual animal not this crazy warehouse [ __ ] you guys are running well that's going to up our operation cost well then that's how it's going to be so then the beef becomes far more expensive now if the beef becomes far more expensive then

what a fast food what do the restaurants do well they're going to have to make things more expensive too so who's going to suffer the poor people who's going to suffer with cheap meat and supermarkets poor people that can't afford it no but i think what happens joe is you start to you have started to pull a thread that reveals the how the fabric of our culture is corrupted because it shouldn't be more expensive the only reason it's more expensive is because everything is put into a capital-based ideology we're already i've heard many times on the show you discussing universal basic income this is like the beginning of looking at alternative

economic models and there's an argument for saying everyone has the right to a nutritious diet everyone has the right to a safe home you know so like you know if we start prioritizing those ideas above these organizations have the right to maximize profit well hold on a sec then maximizing profit that's getting taken off the table and then there comes your counter argument about innovation well i would say if innovation slows no problem because we've our we've decided as a culture to prioritize housing and nutrition for the majority of people now you can say that starts to you know that's that's kind of socialism

but and i don't think that that can work on us on a continental scale i think you have to we have to break down centralized systems whether those are corporate centralized systems or national i feel that we these to the time has gone where there's too much diversity like them not to there probably always was diversity people are different we're influenced by our cultures our schools our education our class our races all these factors and then to expect us all to live in this sort of single bandwidth of this is what america is or this is what france is or this is what england is people are it's too different now but what you know it

does it seems like the standards we're adhering to unconsciously or otherwise is these groups have the right to make as much money as they can and to interfere with that is un-american or unbritish or whatever it was because you know this is beyond national ideas i'm sure so you know for me that's the you pull that thread oh it's the poor that will suffer well then no we have to rule out the poor suffer so we have so what happens in the end you start to get into redistribution of resources managing and regulating the power of the most powerful people and whenever that conversation starts it gets shut down

because we want to conserve even in a capitalist system wouldn't it be more ethical if everybody started from the same starting block well that's what's wrong with the world right what's wrong with the world is some people are in a a they have a terrible hand of cards they've been dealt you know and my point about food is that the people that are gonna they're gonna suffer the most are the people that rely on the cheap food yes as soon as that cheap food gets pulled away then a lot of those supermarkets and a lot of those um fast food stores that rely on that factory farm food

you know they're going to be in a bad situation things are going to be much more expensive and if things are much more if they make animals live like what is that guy's name polyface farms joel's salatin yeah he's a fascinating cat i had him on my podcast before he's sort of a farm reformist and what he believes is that these animals should live just like animals when he has pigs he puts them in a fenced area but he moves the fenced area every day so like the pigs move to a different spot and so they're just constantly foraging and eating acorns

and but they're you know they're living like a pig they're living in a natural they're not living in some crazy warehouse yes he does same with his chickens he has this mobile chicken coop and he moves it from pasture to pasture and this is how he operates his entire farm yes it seems again that a point that's been we've talked about earlier that we ought to like if we're looking like no one knows what's right so perhaps what we could try and do is replicate what we do naturally and so there is an argument that naturally we do hunt there is a an

argument that naturally we do eat meat there is a naturally grown food too though right there's an argument that like was saying like getting into organic gardening if you have your own garden man i mean that is like one of the most karma free things ever if you can figure out a way to have your own compost your own garden and you don't ever have to rely on anybody else for your food well then you're not participating in that [ __ ] at all do you think that the spirit of entrepreneurship could be turned to designing these systems do you think the only thing that incentivizes people is maximum profit i i do too i

think that it is possible that people would sit around and go how do we organize a society that's fairer and just that doesn't kill people's individualism or creativity or right to pursue different goals or to be who they are and believe who you know but like i feel like there's so much fog in the air people don't know what they actually believe in because there's so much powerful cultural influence so much toxin physical toxin literal toxins and toxicity cultural toxicity you know how are how am i to uh protect my children from cultural influences they're telling them you have to look this way be this way behave that

way these are things that are cool if you're not this you're not a man if you're not this you're not a woman you know like like you know as a parent i feel the obligation to create an environment where they can grow up to be who they are in inverted commerce and then when you sort of scale that up to a society you know how can we start to recognize look is this time to look at different systems for living and i what i feel is people want to be involved in the in the power systems that affect them but if you have a group of 100 people they want to be able to run their own schools run their own care systems run be in charge

of their own life not just be some little beam of energy flicked about by cultural forces that they can't reach or touch it's alienating and like one of the things in marxism and that you know and i know very little about this subject is he says that when capitalism reaches a certain point people will be lost alienated they'll feel like a cog in a machine no one will have no pride in their work no one will know what it's like to make a whole bicycle and think look i made that you're just you're the guy that makes the pedals now [ __ ] off home you know now like you know like i'd listen to enough jordan peterson to understand that there are limitations to

what socialism and marxism can achieve but just because you know capitalism is better than feudalism that doesn't mean that's the end of the conversation that we shouldn't be looking for fairer better more just ways of living well um yeah i don't know if capitalism is the problems but maybe it's how people engage with capitalism maybe it's what people choose to focus on if you're just about acquiring wealth and money some people are yeah they're going to be very deeply unhappy and it's going to be this weird game of acquiring influence and power until you just have this insurmountable mound of money that you

live on top of right i don't think that's a a good way for them either i think if we're going to really we're going to look at this country fairly we have to look at think of all the poor neighborhoods and imagine being born in those poor neighborhoods and imagine being born in a place where there's no resources there's no hell you're living in the [ __ ] mountains of west virginia those coal mining communities or people it's all just mobile homes and pills and it's chaos and just extreme poverty what do you do if you're stuck in there what have you if you're born to that clan that's the

group you're born into you're [ __ ] man you're [ __ ] we have to take our resources and concentrate on parts of america the same way we concentrate on many other problem spots in the world and look at them as like hey man there's a spot where people are [ __ ] we should unfuck them we should figure out a way to go into every single horrible community in this country on this planet ones that are just as bad as some that you see in third world countries they exist right here in america fix that don't ignore that that's crazy if they're in detroit if they're in wherever the [ __ ] they are whatever whatever the horrible community is why

isn't there a concerted national effort to eliminate that that's a major source of crime it's a major source of prop people feel like they got [ __ ] over in life so they want to get at you and take from you because you got that easy road hey man you're born in the [ __ ] suburbs hey man your mom and dad are still together you know hey man your dad has a job and your mom's at home baking and [ __ ] you live like a [ __ ] norman rockwell movie [ __ ] you man my mom's on crack my mom's a prostitute my life is hell my dad beats me i've been sexually molested since i was a little kid this is the reality that people exist and they don't feel like anybody's

coming to help them we we need to concentrate on that the government if the government really cares about us if they're really involved in social engineering and making america better again make those places better those are the price places you need to concentrate on not tax breaks for [ __ ] super rich corporations that get you in place they make enough money man that's not the problem the money is where where the money goes what's it being allocated towards the biggest problem in our country is these in impossible to escape communities yes that so many people just get sucked into

this trap and for every person that gets out and becomes a basketball player or a successful business person and they have this story about the poverty that they grew up in they they are so rare yes and then it's not to be applauded that they got through that it is but it's more to be we should understand like hey we've got a real [ __ ] problem that we're churning out all these people that live with they start out in life with a massive deficit start out in life emotionally [ __ ] physically abused they start out with everybody around them is a loser everybody's going to jail everybody is constantly doing pills or this or that they're it's all

negative and to to to ask them to develop their own positive mindset uniquely in a vacuum it's preposterous yeah so these pull them up by your booth traps all those [ __ ] hey you got to pull yourself up by your bootstraps like they don't even have boots man you don't understand like you don't know what you're talking about you've never seen it you've never been involved in that kind of poverty it's not fair it's not fair at all if we care about people that's what we should [ __ ] care about yes i couldn't agree much the number one problem and it's everywhere in the world all the all the crime and poverty work

imagine if everyone the lowest you could live is like a middle-class existence yes boy everybody would all be a lot more [ __ ] relaxed immediately if you always had meals you always had food you always had a roof over your head everyone lives middle class holy [ __ ] i mean obviously that's way past the expectations that we have right now for the world because like 34 000 a year globally puts you in the world one percent you know i mean that's the one if you make 34 000 a year which is hard to live on man yes you're in the one percent of

the world but that standard that you've i so very eloquently described is i think achievable and that ought be the aim and when you give just one example of how legislate the bias of legislation is continually to support the powerful while making the just making nominal gestures to poverty good way of putting out nominal gestures like where you put that yeah and like so the the if there is a point to nation if there is a point to a flag in our belief and this idea that there is an america and there is a britain and we're all together and we're all one and we've got a common destiny and a common past then

if we're not if we're ignoring and neglecting those communities then i say that is what defines us you know and until there are systems codes regulations that prioritize that we will continue to live in something heading toward if not a dystopia something moving in the direction of dystopia where the priorities and uh dreams are sort of owned really by the kind of bit mad evil insect robot images that we've seen discussed people do get very concerned when someone reaches a point of excessive power and influence like a jeff bezos type character when you see some guy who's not he doesn't have a

million dollars like wow guy's got a million dollars like he must be so relaxed he's got so much money no he's got 150 billion and he works every day maniacally and he's constantly doing new projects and new things and buying out whole foods and that's like pinnacle capitalism is one of the things that scares people the most when someone just acquires this insane position of power and wealth like a bill gates type character who is very altruistic very very generous bill gates is accused of one of the better examples of someone who gains a lot of money and

then does a lot to help people especially in his retirement all they do is focus on charitable organizations and yeah which is brilliant but you know marvelous and you know i'm not not criticizing the great achievements of brilliant people but like but if really for me that demonstrates the lim the limitations come from the type of systems we live in that you can't through charity affect every impoverished community in america you know like we the systems that we have are oh well if you're poor like that you know the bootstrap model well this guy did it look at this great guy who overcame the odds you know until like i

feel like in a sense charity has become a kind of valve that allows you know people like you and i who aren't poor to feel like well i do a bit you know i'm sort of involved i can wash my hands of it you know like what these unless we there's there is no america there is no england unless we have integral relationships with one another where we support one another if we really are on a team we see someone who's completely downtrodden who's on our team and we ignore them well that's not much of a [ __ ] team is it no i mean that's what i feel like

when i come to red lights and i see homeless people i feel terrible i'm like i feel like you know i mean this part of you is like don't give them any money because they know they're going to just buy drugs you know let them figure it out but then they're not going to figure it out they have mental health issues and they're stuck out here and they're supposedly on the team they're probably born in america they probably have national citizenship here you know they this is our team and no one gives a [ __ ] that they're camped out under the bridge it's like the diffusion of responsibility that

comes with these massive numbers 20 million in la 300 and plus whatever it is now was like 320 in america yeah it's unbelievable i think there's 90 000 in the general california like a cities worth of homeless people isn't it it's not difficult for me to envisage like when we talk about the transcendent states that can be achieved through meditation and psychedelics meaning that beings like us can access them it's not difficult to envisage human like a type of creature a type of being a little more evolved than us that would look back and say oh my god they allowed homelessness they allowed those impoverished communities oh why was it

i've said this belief in competitive systems and survival of the fittest that were resourced from ideas that weren't really meant to be translated into that when you were talking before about like the natural world is fraught with competition and threat of course that is animals so you know i'm not disputing what you're saying there but we can't transpose that into an economic system survival at a fist if you ain't got enough hustle and muscle [ __ ] you you're down by the wayside you know here we have an obligation to aspire to the better parts of our nature not to continually use materialism and rationalism to justify that 20 of the

population you know or whatever energy is are just garbage or just waste and they're that's affordable we can accord we can live with that it's for me it's that's why would we once we have the knowledge that oh yeah we shouldn't be farming in that way oh we shouldn't have social systems all of the the answer is always the same because if you were to change in that area it will affect the interest of the powerful it will affect impede the ability of certain organizations to make profit now i'm you know i'm not talking about you know i don't know the lexicon enough around socialism and capitalism and marxism and various forms of social organization i'm

just talking about my assumption that we're all resourced from the same basic material and phenomena we all have compassion and love in us and if we on an individual level can achieve some level of access to that then we can start to organize ourselves on that basis not on the basis of well what's the most i can get as an individual it's rational for me to i'm not involved in that that doesn't affect me personally you know and i think it's a hard thing for us to hold i think the reason we all do just live with homelessness and the only decision we make is do we put a couple of dollars out the window at the light or not then like

it's hard to hold that it's hard to love more than 100 people there's no fix like there's no as an individual but not as not one person and even collectively as a group when you have mental health issues unless you want to institutionalize those people yeah but then who here's the thing right if everyone has a unique and if everyone has their own ideas about what to do with their life and everyone has freedom what if you just don't have enough people that are interested in in mental health of the homeless people you just don't have enough there's no resources guaranteed the resources yeah that's a big question because our

systems are biased in a particular direction what if they have government funding do you think that they could cure homelessness one of the advantages i've got of being a drug addict is it means i have to help other drug addicts as part of my own recovery this puts me into areas institutions groups facilities where i meet and drug addicts and always what you'll find the people that work there there's always someone like a man or a woman most often in my personal experience is a woman some matriarchal woman full of mother energy that just will do this [ __ ] forever for free for nothing that just loves it

let's just put herself like my grandmother did or my mother did or like these women do between people in the gutter they're just willing to say i'll be the person i'll be the person in l.a at friendly house it was a woman called peggy albrecht that used to run a play uh friendly houses for women that have got drug and addiction and abuse issues and like this woman she was from chicago she was 90 years old by the time like i met she was so rude and brilliant and beautiful and entirely willing to dedicate herself and i think every community everywhere everyone knows people like that and i feel that the same way as like if it is someone that's

got a great capacity to play basketball or be a comic like i think that when you spot those people that you they're encouraged at helping people yeah the talent of compassion and you know but we don't value that unless it's like unless it can be turned to a profit [ __ ] off all of those organizations like those organizations that help people with addiction issues you know like they are maligned and like the the people that profit from the opioid crisis they are supported they are able to conceal as john oliver brilliantly revealed that they're able to conceal their practices continually the invisible bias is in the

direction of profit and like the failure of certain types of socialism doesn't mean that's the end of the argument i think we have an obligation to look for ways of accessing our own uh higher nature better nature kinder nature call it what you will and seeing how we can organize that as an individual you can do so much i mean if bill gates can you know [ __ ] know i don't know cure malaria and make the significant charitable you know these impressive powerful people can't make a meaningful difference then clearly this is a systemic problem well there's also the problem with homeless people and

that they're adults when you become an adult and you develop from the time of your child it's probably very likely that the damage was all done while they were young they were probably abused and neglected and there's a lot of issues that led them to either have mental health problems or they had mental health problems already maybe they have genetic problems then on top of that there's drug abuse for each one of those people to get well you're going to need a massive amount of folks you're not going to have one old lady who's rude who's fun and brilliant that's a cute movie no but that's 20

people but i think this is a good movie write it down i could be rich yeah who would be the woman who player i would have liked the one that was uh out of golden girls is still getting she's still available i thought oh god that's a wrap still around betty white's still hanging in there yeah but would you book a movie around her stink hang on yeah it's um no you're right look there's limitations to the individual but there's not like crush this optimism in the crib now joe because i feel like crashing the optimism but i'm saying the logistics of it would almost be

insurmountable and it's very referred to logistics is not an objective thing it's a thing that's been biased over time sort of once a person is developed once they're a human it's very difficult to turn that train around yeah if we can save the community and save the future like help like less people get through [ __ ] help let help more people get through with hope and with a real possibility for improving their life versus have this sense of hopelessness that many are confronted with that's going to make less crime i agree that's like that's just if they if someone looked at it

from a social engineering standpoint it almost seems like the only way that would ever have to happen would be there's be some [ __ ] catastrophe that forced people to act we sometimes need something that's shoved in our face to force us to act but if someone brilliantly calculated the amount of resources that it would require and then also brilliantly calculated how much less crime it would have how much less how many more innovations because people didn't waste their lives in fact they got through life and used one of the most valuable

resources we have which is the human imagination and creativity and ingenuity like and we're missing that on these people that are growing up in these horrible environments where they can't escape they're so [ __ ] from they're in gangs they're you know the crime and poverty and violence they're so [ __ ] that whatever genius they have is wasted on this nonsensical existence if they could just show that and quantify how much that would be how valuable that would be to the overall culture and community of the co of the continent and then ultimately of the earth i mean you would have a reason to engineer and think about this yeah it's a beautiful

that is really beautiful and it's interesting that the way that i agree with you that it almost has to at some point be translated into monetary value because otherwise people don't seem to read it yeah and safety for everybody for them who live in these horrible communities wouldn't be great again if everybody lived like a middle class person the idea that that's impossible seems so insane it almost seems like well then nobody should live like that then like either everybody should be able to live like that or nobody should build a way that that was like that's what everybody really wants right you want to be comfortable

like in terms of like your ability to exist and then all the things you're doing that you struggle with should be a good percentage of them other than emotional and friendship type things should be of your own choosing you choose to to take a difficult path you choose to take an adventure you choose to try to enrich yourself with this difficult experience and the challenge of it and try to overcome that challenge instead of you your challenge is not to get killed by a gang you know your your challenge is not get [ __ ] by your uncle again you know what i mean i mean this is what people have to deal with and you're you're missing

these brilliant minds they don't get this chance to come through and and sneak through that [ __ ] salmon ladder you know get up to the top it's very beautiful that you're uh passionate about this and i think popularizing these ideas is important because i feel that then people will be familiar with this kind of language and will recognize that when there is political discourse how phatic and empty it is that people will say you know like i think in the last election in your country it was clear that there was no one no one is saying that no no one is standing on a political platform of do you know what everyone should

basically be able to live a middle class uh lifestyle there's no reason there's enough resources we can do this we could organize society on that basis because that's considered outlandish and crazy and we're so there's so much i can again you know with your well um imaginary lissa the listener that would consider this pontification you know there's so much anger i can i feel that a lot of political events that have occurred in the last five years are the manifestation of a social rage of people that are pissed off with not being heard are pissed off with a cultural conversation that didn't include them

and that they feel angry and i don't want to help other people [ __ ] those but you know that that resource is becoming sort of nurtured and grown and it i feel people would feel tremendous relief to let go of that to feel like listen it's all right for you to be you could we be a little more aspirational and a little and consider what our goals are consider what progress looks like to us is progress the terrifying robots or is progress considering elevating the lowest among us to raise the standards if people could just understand that this this is not forever you don't there is no such thing as forever this is a

temporary thing and you've gotta try to eat as much good out of this as you can and to go against my point you know there's a real problem with people being lazy people are lazy there's not an equality of effort the the idea of a quality of outcome like people want you know income equality well there's no effort equality that's just the fact there's people out there that are just they work harder they're smarter they're more focused they're less distracted they're more dedicated they have a better plan they've thought it through better and they become more successful and the idea that they become more successful than

you because somehow or another there's some nefarious actions afoot well that that negates another possibility which is you're a lazy [ __ ] that's a possibility yes and what do we do about those people i tell you this i've got a plan for the lazy what do i do lazy island you're all going to lazy it's a bit like pinocchio's donkey no arcade games though they're too lazy i feel like um well i consider this that people that don't have a lot of life force like i feel like it's a gift to be a person that's got a lot of drive to be a person that's like i'm [ __ ] going to achieve

this [ __ ] you know like some people are a little lethargic and don't have a lot of energy i feel that's a kind of despondency we could break that down in a thousand different ways is it poor diet is it poor role models is it poor social conditioning who are these lazy people because it could be weak could be even weak genes so then we'd like in the territory of disability so however you look at it i think you end up at a point of compassion i think you so i think we should start at the point of compassion because i thought like what is tolerance if it isn't the tolerance of people that we sort of can't understand as long as they carry their own weight we usually

don't have a problem with it but when they're so lazy they just juke the system and screw people over and figure their way to scam through life yeah but i think those people don't exist only at the bottom of the social ladder i think they exist at the top and the effect there is worse are you talking about the president united states this is my country [ __ ] you better be i interviewed him about five years ago i was doing something before he was the president he was okay near him like he um yeah he was sort of sweet but i remember thinking what i felt was

why you don't have no intellectual curiosity that's what i felt well that's what i felt i felt like i was sort of liked him he was nice and his staff at that big tower they all loved him and i don't think he's been very genuine with that great make america great again do you i don't like where's that everyone should be middle class we're going to start reorganizing society reaching out into detroit and in a crushed mining towns in west virginia where's that otherwise you ain't making america great again that's true that's true but think about how we were talking about dave chappelle about one of the reasons why he's so great other than the

fact that he's smart and just talented and all these good things is that he knows what he does and he does it right that's his wheelhouse he stays in there trump's wheelhouse is making giant gold buildings with his name on him and spray tan he knows what the [ __ ] to do and he knows how to make money and he doesn't give a [ __ ] about all that other stuff because that other stuff is wasted energy for him his energy is in focusing on how you get more buildings with those giant gold trump letters on it and no one can argue that it's been a tremendous success i once stayed in one of those hotels the water bottle had his face on it you know what i mean he's

amazing incredible what an achievement drinking the inside of his face but that's his thing right it's like why is it okay for your thing to be tennis and that's all you know about i don't even pay attention to the politics why is that okay but when we see a guy like him we have a problem with it because he's not his intellectual curiosity is only about money so it's even grosser i agree listen there's nowhere to return to my point i wouldn't waste time judging anyone as an individual because i imagine if i were to spend time examining donald trump's past his relationship with his father

the conditions he grew up in what he felt he had to do to be a good person i would imagine i'd go yeah of course but what i would query is a system that elevates the people like that and i you know the two positions of incredible power like and you know again i believe that it's systems that need to change not individuals and i think we've overly fetishized politics i don't live in this country so i don't know if it's much worse under trump i've heard some things that sound really bad than it was under barack obama but what my more my general belief is you don't fetishize individuals and get distracted think about changing the

system because you're not getting that middle class lifestyle for everyone neither no one's offering that bernie sanders isn't offering that no one's offering about and unless someone's offering that what's the where why should we get involved have you ever talked to economists about like what is the problem what's the like people that are you know more socialistic minded they'd be more socialist minded i guess but but understanding of capitalism to the point where they could point out the flaws in allowing this infinite growth model where someone gets to a point like a jeff bezos or something like that what

would they do to mitigate that you're not going to put a cap like that's when people say that like you're going to pay 70 in taxes over 10 million dollars that was like one of the ones that was banded about people just start laughing like you're out of your [ __ ] mind no one's gonna do that they'll get to 10 million dollars and then they'll stop yeah it's stupid it's that's i think a very limiting system and i feel that the problems are broader than that i think that like did you ever see like you know if you ever watched steve bannon talk that he's a man like you know someone i would again not politically agree with for what it's

worth but when his description of what happened in that economic crash of 2008 and the decisions that were made for the you know american taxpayer to bail out the like financial industry and i've subsequently seen a documentary that said look this is why we had to do that these were the options but like for me that is a demonstration of capitalism's inherent failings and limitations but we're not talking about a system that is flawless and perfect it's pretty [ __ ] flawed aside from the human collateral damage and that you have again described the the communities that are impoverished and without hope and living in poverty in a kind of slavery you know

it even in itself doesn't work according to its own rules it has to be artificially sustained and rebooted when it inevitably fails so the pure sign of it is the fact that no one went to jail for the subprime mortgage crisis yeah those guys didn't go to jail all those guys that with the real financial analysts were looking at from a distance they were going i see where this is going like this is going to blow up and a lot of people are going to lose their houses like you guys are [ __ ] like yeah and there was a lot of people that engaged in those predatory loans and they didn't get punished those those guys the

craziest thing is a lot of them got bonuses yes that's right they got bonuses even if the bank got bailed out and they said the bonuses are part of their contracts and if they didn't honor their contracts they'd have a hard time hiring these people and there would be chaos and they just made it a reason why they had to give them millions of dollars in bonuses yeah when they failed you get a bonus and you failed like your bank failed and you still get a bonus like you knew about those predatory loans you knew about those you knew about the sub prime mortgage [ __ ] that was going down in your business

yeah you just let it ride and now you're gonna get up you're gonna get a bonus what's the bonus for yeah what would you have to do to be fined if that's yeah that's the bonus dude be jailed yeah i mean just think about what they're doing to julian assange right they're they're they're throwing that guy in a jail somewhere that didn't look good that embassy move no but i mean the fact that what he did was release information that everybody found very interesting and what they did is crash the whole [ __ ] economy right it's pretty good that he was able to ride that embassy idea for as long as because it's not

actually in another country is it it's in london i know it is i went and visited him in there as a matter of fact just briefly popped in so what do you think's gonna happen with him i think he's gonna end up serving a pretty lumpy prison sentence somewhere isn't abram i think they're going to get them on though like what are they going to charge them on they're charging around like hacking charges or some [ __ ] now which they didn't charge them on before right is that what's emerged and he's going to be extradited to this country is that true i don't know i don't know well i mean again i suppose this is what happens if you challenge the interests

of the powerful if trump was really trump really wanted to get people on the side he'd pardon him do you think that that would be popular because like someone like that edward snowden is it like look i'm sort of obviously i think don't put the lives of people at risk that are in compromised military positions that seems like a fairly obvious thing but like i don't think they did that but no what i understood was they got hacked and someone else released the the documents without the names redacted yeah it seems to me wikileaks never did that edward's ed snowden seems to qualify for a hero in pretty much any way you look at it

he's a 26 year old person making that decision and yeah very brilliant you know i've heard him uh i think he was on neil degrasse tyson's podcast they talked to him oh wow via skype or however they did it but did you see in citizen four there's a bit like in that film about edward snowden citizen four there's a bit where he's just come out and he's talking to the journalists or filmmakers that are making the film and he's going they can [ __ ] watch you with this phone you can't leave that like he's like in the sort of a state of mad enlightenment where he's just seen the truth if they're listening to us now you can't [ __ ] have that on you don't

let him like it's terrifying to watch someone because you know obviously now he's calmed down he's dealt with it he understands that you know but he was like a person that was emerging from having seen the other side of the matrix yeah i mean i mean he was deep into it and then when he revealed all the information they had a [ __ ] they were had a manhunt for him the guy had a hideout in russia he had to seek asylum in our enemy yes the whole thing is so strange yeah so who do our power structures actually support if someone tells the truth to the population they have to flee to russia if someone talks about improper agricultural practices

that's against the law they can be imprisoned that it starts to reveal that the state itself the very thing that we revere the very thing that we identify is the tool of our oppression they want to discourage people from leaking information that makes them look horrible it's that simple yeah it's just it's that simple if you look at what information he leaked and what what it did well it you know what he did was he revealed things that everyone wanted to know about that we felt were crimes it makes me feel that it's as simple as if you knew what we do

in order to keep [ __ ] running you would revolt so we are never going to let you know well that for me in a sense is a past that's starting well hold on [ __ ] who are you i thought you are elected officials you're one of us but no you're above us to the point where someone leaks information about your crimes they get locked in this embassy for seven years like what is their crime exactly in comparison to the crimes that he's revealed yes like that's where it's crazy when you look at the the balance the imbalance between what his crime is and the crimes that

he's revealed i mean he's revealed some staggering crimes and no one's concentrating on that the government is not freaking out we gotta we've left some obviously uh we have work to do we have corrections to make there's none of that talk there's get that guy talk yeah that's right and i mean like it's sort of under the veil of patriotism a lot can be concealed and and that is a an incident that passes through several administrations so like you you've been there for seven years yes it makes you think well what is the what are the differences you know like i kind of you know sort of i been on bill

maher show i like bill maher i'm i'm you know very simplified uh left you know i'm ultimately beyond left left wing i'm you know trying to my belief is that we should try and organize a system based on a hallucigenic experience for [ __ ] sake there's there's no party for me and i'm not even allowed the [ __ ] hallucigens so like you know so like i'm like you know i'm not a right-wing person it's safe to say but like i feel that so many of the problems that we're experiencing now is because the the democratic left-wing liberal organizations stopped serving the people they were in the case of the british labour party designed or set up to surf

they neglected them they abandoned them you know the white with the white working class in britain were 50 60 years ago told hey there's this thing called britain we want you to go out there and fight and die for it give up your sons get out there oh and now they're told hey there's no such thing as britain and like yeah no wonder people are confused no wonder people are baffled no wonder there are abandoned constituencies and despair and rage and i i feel that in a way it's like what is patriotism resourced from a sense that we all need to belong that we want to be together that you

know that we're willing to believe in a fictional idea a flag and a story about you know the origin of a nation whether that's an old one like mine or a new one like this one you know we're willing to participate in that but if those values aren't real if they aren't like if it is we are going to support the most powerful we will lie to you whenever necessary when our lies are revealed we'll imprison punish and lie about those people we don't care about the most vulnerable what the [ __ ] is the flag that we're waving who is it for it's a good point and on that note let's wrap this [ __ ] up good we went out high